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mike bryan 02-09-2004 10:35 AM

Ceramic Coated Headers
 
This my be a duplicate thread. I don't know what happened to the thread I just posted but it didn't show up on the board. In a nutshell. Sanderson's website states not to put headers on a new or untuned motor. This goes for chrome, stainless and ceramic coated headers. I have not seen other makers of headers give this advice. I plan on putting ceramic coated headers on my project car which happens to have a fresh 383. I don't really want to put an exhaust set up on this thing and then put the definitive headers on it later. Have you all heard of this as being a problem? i would like to hear from anyone with experience in putting ceramic coated headers on a new motor and especially if they ran into tourble with the finish. Thanks in advance. Mike

astroracer 02-09-2004 10:58 AM

If you have a lean condition the headers will get hot enough to cook the finish off. I haven't had this problem myself but have heard of it happening. During break in the exhaust can get pretty hot if you don't have the tune right so either stick on a set of old headers or make sure the motor is running a little fat when you first fire it up (not a bad idea anyway) I always step up a couple of jet sizes for a fresh start/breakin carb just so I know I won't have a lean condition.
Mark

OldBucsFan 02-09-2004 11:08 AM

After you post, click to refresh and it will show up.

J. E. Allison 02-16-2010 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike bryan
This my be a duplicate thread. I don't know what happened to the thread I just posted but it didn't show up on the board. In a nutshell. Sanderson's website states not to put headers on a new or untuned motor. This goes for chrome, stainless and ceramic coated headers. I have not seen other makers of headers give this advice. I plan on putting ceramic coated headers on my project car which happens to have a fresh 383. I don't really want to put an exhaust set up on this thing and then put the definitive headers on it later. Have you all heard of this as being a problem? i would like to hear from anyone with experience in putting ceramic coated headers on a new motor and especially if they ran into tourble with the finish. Thanks in advance. Mike

You can burn up a set of ceramic headers in a heartbeat, from a lean condition or distributer setting. I know because I watched the ceramic cook right off mine. I will never go with anything but stainless in the future!

SSedan64 02-16-2010 10:06 PM

Ceramic Coated Header
 
I agree, Carb not properly jetted/tuned, Timing incorrect will cook headers.
Ceramic coated headers require several mild heat cycles to cure the coating before you can normally operate the vehicle, (run till hot/let cool/repeat 3-4 times). Hot means you don't want to touch it, not smoking hot.
You can't do this when breaking in an engine, Cam breakin, Ring Seating, Tuning etc.. will create too much heat for new headers.

35WINDOW 02-17-2010 07:10 AM

And don't forget that if you run Nitrous it will cook them too- :spank:

Frisco 02-17-2010 07:47 AM

Here is the problem that most encounter when initially starting up a fresh engine and beginning to do the "cam break-in" procedure for the next 20 minutes or so.

The timing often is somewhat retarded when first cranking up the engine. If not adjusted very quickly after the startup, the exhaust temps coming out of the heads down to the collectors will be extremely high (mostly flame). This will cause any exhaust system to begin to glow a cherry red color. On steel tubing style headers it will look like you can actually see through the glowing steel. The coolant temps will also increase rapidly due to the extreme temps being generated.

A less often cause is a major vacuum leak that will induce an extremely lean condition. This can often be heard as a high pitched squeal. The cure for it is to find the leak and fix it.

The solution is very simple. After the engine has been started, immediately run the engine up to around 2500 RPM and with the vacuum advance hose dis-connected from the vacuum cannister and plugged off, set the timing to around 34-36 degrees. Re-connect the vacuum advance hose. Do not let the engine idle during the 20 minute break-in run. This will be a good starting point for the timing and will enable the exhaust temps and the coolant temps to be much lower. After the cam break-in run has been completed and the oil and filter have been replaced, the timing can be set followed by any carb adjustments needed.

To prevent ruining a new set of exhaust headers (doesn't matter whether they are ceramic, painted, chrome or stainless), it is preferable to install and old unwanted set of headers for the initial cam break-in run and preliminary timing and carb adjustments.

The following are expected results for the different header finishes if the timing is off and the exhaust temps get very hot.

Painted headers will have the paint (even high temp) burned off and flaking with a gray to white appearance.

Ceramic headers will become very dull in appearance and can not be polished back out. The finish will look more like aluminum paint. The finish has been destroyed.

Stainless headers will appear golden in color that might be able to be polished out.

Chrome plated headers will turn blue closest to the heads turning gold the further away from the heads. Blue Away or Simi Chrome can restore minor discoloration but it will be somewhat dull. Having only nickel and chrome plating leaving off the copper can greatly help preventing the discoloration of plated headers. The copper plating is the primary source for discoloration with plated headers.

Double wall headers that are then chrome plated can also enable the user to run chrome plated headers that will not discolor too badly in a short period of time.

crystalbluevib 02-17-2010 08:21 AM

Thats interesting, i told the guy who has a engine dyno i wanted to use my headers instead of there headers. Maybe ill just use there headers.

AluTri 09-02-2010 01:21 PM

Ceramic Coatings ../not All the same
 
Frisco is right, but to add on ceramic coatings ... Different manufactures have different performance (Temperature) ratings. The most common one out there (but not the only one!) is a chrome like ceramic which all formulations have an aluminum filler, which is what gives the silver look after polishing. Aluminum melts between 1100-1200F. If you exceed that temperature that's why they turn milky. The only way around that is to put a higher rated heat barrier on underneath to protect it. An alternate single coat and still keep the performance boost and polished look is to go with a different heat barrier without aluminum in. Such as, SS ... at least one company out there offers it with a higher temperature rating. A good one for aircraft which normally run @ 1400F. The highest temperature rated ceramic heat barrier coating is a flat black at over 2100F. It stays on (I've seen it) well past cherry red and reduces the outside surface temperature at least 200F. Even Turbo manufacturers recommend you don't exceed 1800F on the hot side. Anyway, I know of at least 20 other ceramic heat barrier coatings of different colors and/or finishes with temperature ratings of 1200-2100+. Heat and color retention normally do not go together, but within their limits Ceramic Coatings do work. The most difficult part is to find someone who specializes with them, is honest, knows what they are doing and does a good job. I had one powder coater tell me he wouldn't ever do them again because "Ceramic coatings are just too fussy to apply".

AluTri 09-02-2010 02:12 PM

Not all Ceramic Coatings are alike ...
 
Frisco is right but.. add info to Ceramic Coatings ... Different manufactures have different performance (Temperature) ratings. The most common one out there (but not the only one!) is a chrome like ceramic which all formulations have an aluminum filler in. This is what gives the silver look after polishing. Aluminum melts between 1100-1200F. If you exceed that temperature that's why they turn milky. The only way around that is to put a higher rated heat barrier on underneath to protect the finish. An alternate single coat and still keep the performance boost and polished look, is to go with a different heat barrier without aluminum in. Such as, SS or titanium ... at least one company out there offers them with a higher temperature rating. Good ones for aircraft which normally run @ 1400F. The highest temperature rated commmercial ceramic heat barrier coating I know of is a flat black at over 2100F. It stays on (I've seen it) well past cherry red and reduces the outside surface temperature at least 200F. Even Turbo manufacturers recommend you don't exceed 1800F on the hot side. Anyway, I know of at least 20 other ceramic heat barrier coatings of different colors and/or finishes with temperature ratings of 1200-2100+.

Heat and color retention normally do not go together, but within their limits, Ceramic Coatings do work. Performance wise, ceramic coatings take over where powder coatings stop. PVD (Physical Vapor Deposition) Ceramics are less expensive than Plasma Coating and can out perform them. The most difficult part is to find someone who specializes with them, is honest, knows what they are doing and does a good job. I had one powder coater tell me he wouldn't ever do ceramics again because "Ceramic coatings are just too fussy to apply".

bubbahotep 09-02-2010 02:16 PM

I have a set of hooker super comp ceramic headers on my 383 and used them for the initial break in. They glowed a pretty red and have been rusted brown since day 1. I tell people they're ceramic coated and show em the small piece of ceramic still left at the collector. Wish I had been told in advance :)

lmsport 09-02-2010 02:47 PM

i have never had the new engine heat problem, but the only coating I have ever seen stay on long term is Jet-Hot. Everybody else's coating pops off eventually. The coating on MAC products is second and has always stayed on except for locations that get wet while driving in the rain.

AndersonRacing44 09-02-2010 03:08 PM

wow im glad i found this topic! question will just running Exhaust manifolds be ok for the breakin? or are the exhaust valves still to exposed?

ericnova72 09-02-2010 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndersonRacing44
wow im glad i found this topic! question will just running Exhaust manifolds be ok for the breakin? or are the exhaust valves still to exposed?

Everything you have heard about "exposed valves" is utter shade tree nonsense from people who don't know any better. It is nothing to worry about.

I've only found a couple coating companies to be any good - Jet Hot and Nitroplate. Everyone else just seems to be distant seconds .... far distant.

AndersonRacing44 09-02-2010 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericnova72
Everything you have heard about "exposed valves" is utter shade tree nonsense from people who don't know any better. It is nothing to worry about.

I've only found a couple coating companies to be any good - Jet Hot and Nitroplate. Everyone else just seems to be distant seconds .... far distant.

haha thanks for clearing that up for me, when i break in my 455 ill throw on the crappy stock manifolds then put on my ceramics.


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