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Old 07-28-2013, 08:48 AM
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changing the oil make up

I have a 1951 331 Hemi that I am getting ready to install (not wanting to rebuild at this time) and my problem is that being it's a 1951 non detergent oil was more than likely used, and I wish to use detergent oil. I've been told that the motor needs to be flushed to clean out the past "gunk" and by using parts solvent (two quarts) in the existing oil and running the motor to get it good and warm will break loose most of the years of collection, then use a 10 weight and do the same process will be a good action. Do you have any comments or suggestions on this.

Thank you

Rob

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Old 07-28-2013, 09:22 AM
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I don't know, but, shouldn't this be in the Engine section? You may get more definitive responses in that section.

Ray
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Old 07-28-2013, 09:23 AM
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This almost never turns out good.2 quarts of parts washer is almost half of your volume being replaced w/ cleaner.Running the engine this way,even briefly,could & most likely will cause damage & excessive wear to the crank & cylinder walls,not to mention what all the crud is gonna do after breaking lose.I've seen engines start smoking & using excessive oil just from switching from nondetergent to hi detergent oil.You are also gonna need to use some type of ZDDp supplement to lube the cam & valve seats.Tearing it down & rebuilding is about the only SAFE way to guarantee no damage.Before I would try the method you describe,I would drop the oilpan & clean it & then do a couple or 3 back to back oil changes after briefly running engine.
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Old 07-28-2013, 09:27 AM
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I am not so sure I would run "parts solvent" in existing oil, and then RUN the engine with this solvent mix to operating temperature. To me sounds like your asking for some serious problems.
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Old 07-28-2013, 11:11 AM
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I've heard of using transmission fluid added to engine oil and run right before changing the oil. I think you would be better of buying a specific "engine flush" if you want to try to clean out the sludge.

You will most likely find a thousand different opinions on whether it's a good idea or not.
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Old 07-28-2013, 09:35 PM
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Thank you for your input everyone, I appreciate the information, I don't think I'll do the parts fluid approach sounds like it's a real problem. I'll drop the pan as JokerZ71 suggests and go from there, also the trans fluid was a good idea from 64SS327.
Thanks again

Rob
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Old 07-29-2013, 08:43 AM
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Rislone...
Products | Rislone - Premium Automotive Chemicals
Remove the pan and rocker covers, clean out what you can and then use the above. It may take a few oil changes but it will work as long as the engine is in good shape.
Mark
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Old 07-29-2013, 08:59 AM
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Generally speaking, you'll usually be better off by not using any sort of "flush" at all. That will only cause the built up sludge to begin sloughing off into the oil, and that will block the oil filter in short order. Once the filter is full the oil will be bypassing the oil filter, and dirty oil will now be circulated until the next filter change.

I would use a multigrade oil or even a straight 30w detergent oil. That oil will begin to rid the engine of sludge, but at a much slower rate. I'd hook up a mechanical oil pressure gauge and watch it for a drop in pressure. If you see a drop in pressure before the oil change interval, go ahead and change it and the filter anyway. ZDDPlus type additives might not be needed because of the low spring pressure, but would be good insurance/peace of mind if nothing else.

You should be able to tell if ND oil was being used for the life of the engine by checking the build up of sludge under the filler cap, even. Certainly you can tell by pulling a valve cover. But there's a relatively good chance- if the car was used during the 70s and beyond- the engine was getting detergent oil anyway.
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Old 07-29-2013, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astroracer View Post
Rislone...
Products | Rislone - Premium Automotive Chemicals
Remove the pan and rocker covers, clean out what you can and then use the above. It may take a few oil changes but it will work as long as the engine is in good shape.
Mark
I ruined a good 302 Boss with this stuff.I used exactly as directed.Maybe it wasn't @ fault,but,i'll never believe any different.Anytime you dilute oil by that much witha much thinner substance,you risk damage.After using as directed,within the 1st 500 miles my previously nonoil burning engine had used a quart.By 1000 miles,it was smoking.Tried another oil change.It just kept gettin worse.When I tore engine down,cylinders & crank were scored very badly.
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Old 07-29-2013, 10:16 AM
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There ya have it... Both the goods and bads. I have never had a problem using Rislone. Have cleaned up quite a few sludge pots with it so, take all of this info and do whatever you want. It'll either work or it won't... Guaranteed!
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Old 07-29-2013, 06:23 PM
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Hello, my first post on this forum, although I have been lurking for awhile now.

I actually came here to ask some advice and I shall start a new post for that shortly, but I saw this thread and stopped to read it first.

I do a lot of engine work and I would say if nothing horrible comes out when you drain the current oil I would not do anything special with one exception. The exception being zddp additive.

There is a lot you can read about this subject on the net, but I will give the condensed version.

Zddp is short for a longer name, but basically it is composed of zinc and phosphorus. All engine oils used to come with fairly high concentrations of zddp. Its main function is to protect high pressure sliding contact wear areas in the engine, most notably the cam to lifter contact area.

Our friends at the EPA however don't care for zddp much and have mandated reductions in it. The major reduction was during the mid 90's, and the oil companies didn't really go out of their way to let anybody know about the reduction and across the country cams started to fail during initial break in.

The biggest problem they have from what I can tell is that if oil containing high concentrations of zddp gets past the rings or is reintroduced by the pcv system it gets burned and the resulting gases are very hard on catalytic converters.

Lots of finger pointing and what have you of course, but if you go to the website of any major cam manufacturer they now have information about it.

All this has fallen by the wayside for the majority of the public, due mostly because engines no longer are manufactured for the US market with flat tappet cams, everything is roller lifters or overhead cams and the pressures/sliding contact are much less, so there is no longer really a need for the high concentration of zddp as there was in the past.

The most critical time to have high concentrations on zddp is during the first 10 minutes of initial break in when it forms a glass-like coating over the high pressure sliding contact wear areas. However, over time this coating is worn away and replaced providing there is sufficient zddp present in the engine oil.

For a time diesel oil was exempt from this reduction in zddp, but as time has rolled on the epa has passed more and more stringent rules, and even the zddp in hd diesel oil has been reduced. Lots of reading about this is available on the net as well.

Another issue with zddp is that the detergents in oil, calcium is one of the more common, fight with the zddp. Basically they are trying to strip away the coating the zddp is trying to maintain. Almost all oils have some detergents in them, and some level of zddp, but the relative balance between them is a factor.

You can buy special oil for breaking in flat tappet cams, and it is actually cheaper than regular oil, but it has such a high concentration of zddp that you can't or at least are not supposed to run it past the break in stage.

You can also buy special oil for running in older cars with flat tappet cams on a daily basis, but it is not cheaper. Two or three times the cost of regular oil - and on up.

You can also buy zddp additive, which is the route I went. Zddp plus I believe was the brand name.

Finally, engine/cam break in lube is probably the cheapest way to go. It generally contains very high concentrations of zddp. Of course the exact concentration, and quite probably other additives, varies by company.

So, running some kind of flush through the engine isn't likely to be good for zddp coating on the cam. It might also dislodge something you would rather leave where it is, A semi-dissolved clump of old oil build up might not pass through small oil galleries very well.

If it were my engine, I would just change the oil when I installed it. I would use the weight the engine calls for. I would not use synthetic oil, although many of them contain zddp as well. I would especially not use high detergent oil. I would also put the zddp additive in as recommended by the company that makes it, or at a minimum I would add a half bottle or so of engine assembly lube - not as precise, but better than nothing.

I'd also make sure it had enough coolant, then I'd disable the ignition by grounding the coil and crank it over for awhile. Not long enough to burn up the starter, but enough to get some oil where it belongs. If you have an actual guage it would be best. That way you can see the pressure. Actually it would be best to pull the distributor and spin the oil pump until you show good pressure on the gauge, but just cranking it over for awhile before you start it works.

Then I'd fire it up and let it idle, or if the carb won't let it idle, the minimum rpm to keep it running. It may rattle or tap a bit at first until the lifters get a full pump, but it should quite down in a couple minutes, sometimes takes a few more minutes if the engine has sat a long time.

If it is making loud noises, I would shut it down and figure out why, or if the common slight rattle/tap gets louder instead of quieter, I'd shut it down and figure out why.

Then I'd keep an eye on the oil and change soon after it begins to darken the first time, and then keep an eye on it and maybe change it out sooner than normal the first couple of oil change intervals.

I don't actually recall finding Hotrodders.com when I was researching this, but I imagine it has been/ is being discussed in the engine section of the forums.

I do feel it necessary to mention there are people who think the whole zddp thing is hogwash. I haven't quite decided if they fall into the tinfoil hat wearing camp or not, but after a lot of reading I will have to say I'm siding with the aftermarket cam companies and the guys with the lab results on this.

At worst, nobody claims zddp is bad for an engine except with crazy amounts over extended periods, so I figure it as cheap insurance.

Edit Note: I suspect this thread will be moved over to the engine section of the forum, and there are without a doubt people there who know more about the subject than I, but I thought I would type this out since its in the body section at the moment and might be useful for someone who doesn't mess with engines much and might not be aware of the zddp issue.

Last edited by OldF250XLT; 07-29-2013 at 06:30 PM. Reason: Edit Note:
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Old 07-29-2013, 07:42 PM
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flush

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Originally Posted by 64SS327 View Post
I've heard of using transmission fluid added to engine oil and run right before changing the oil. I think you would be better of buying a specific "engine flush" if you want to try to clean out the sludge.

You will most likely find a thousand different opinions on whether it's a good idea or not.
I have done this procedure:
this is how I did it;
change oil and filter,add 1 liter ATF,
run engine for 10-15 minutes
do another complete oil change and filter,
drive 1500 Kilometers(1000 miles)
repeat same procedure.

problems that might occur,many

lifters may colapse if dirty all cleaned now,
may find leaks that were not leaking before,
might have lower oil pressure
give it a whirl
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Old 07-30-2013, 08:06 AM
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Thanks guy's very helpful information, I knew if I asked here on this site I'd get some very good professional information and I did.

Rob
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Old 07-30-2013, 09:22 AM
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Another option, just throw in a pint or so of Marvel Mystery Oil at your regular oil change interval and run a good oil filter. those two little things should have you pretty cleaned up in a mater of a few oil changes and its a much more gentle procedure that won't cause you to wipe a bearing or something of that nature.

Every time I buy a used car I use this procedure. It's not immediate but it'll work eventually and I prefer something a little more gentle than super diluting the oil.

ATF can also work. Also, I run a little MMO in the fuel system and its great at keeping it clean. I don't know whats in MMO but it does a damn good job of keeping things clean and for some odd reason turns your spark plugs slightly pink.
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Old 07-30-2013, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alan robinson View Post
I have a 1951 331 Hemi that I am getting ready to install (not wanting to rebuild at this time) and my problem is that being it's a 1951 non detergent oil was more than likely used, and I wish to use detergent oil. I've been told that the motor needs to be flushed to clean out the past "gunk" and by using parts solvent (two quarts) in the existing oil and running the motor to get it good and warm will break loose most of the years of collection, then use a 10 weight and do the same process will be a good action. Do you have any comments or suggestions on this.

Thank you

Rob
The only way to flush that old gunk out is to dissassemble the engine to the point where you can get inside with solvent, brushes and scrapers to dig the gunk loose and rinse it out. Simple solvent cleaners will not do an adaquate job and risk loosening much of this stuff without removing it such that it may came loose later when the engine is in operation.

These old oils generated things we don't see today and generation or two of young people don't even know about; that is sludge and varnish. It will be everywhere! The sludge collects where the oil flow is minimal in corners and pockets. The sludge will contain large amounts of lead from the fuels of the day, this will add a gray color to the goop. Varnish will be on all surfaces that do not actually rub together. It can be thick and stubborn to remove. It will interfere with dissassembly where non-rubbing parts have to be removed through through their interfacing part. Typical of this are lifters that need to come out through their bore. The varnish on the non rubbing section will stop removal which will require significant force to overcome such that sometimes the part is ruined in the process of extraction.

Modern detergent oils will loosen some of this old stuff and allow it to circulate with the oil, this is usually extremely harmful. The 1950s through the mid 60s were a very difficult time as this is the transition period of non to detergent oils. Older engines that ran just fine for many years with non-detergent oil were practically destroyed over night when filled with detergent oil.

Your best course of action, barring dissassembly cleaning, is to bring it to life with non-detergent oil of the specified weight which most likely is single weight 30.

Bogie
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