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Yachtsman 12-12-2012 07:30 AM

Cheap power Conversion
 
I came across a post somewhere, Some hot rod builder was due to rebuild is ride but he was a little strapped being as he'd just gone professional and outfitted his shop. He took his old 351 he'd been using for a while and he converted it to E85, He was already running pistons that gave him a compression ratio of 10.1 but he was buying lots of octane enhancer. All he did was drill out his carb jets and re-time he was done. He lived in Minnesota so he could change to pump gas, get 10hp every digit of compression over standard and return a good MPG. Lucky stiff.

vinniekq2 12-12-2012 07:48 AM

I would like to see a detailed article with that claim

dwwl 12-12-2012 09:24 AM

my local machine shop fella told me that he had built a motor for a guy who wanted a high comprestion motor. he had set of pistons that were domed, so they just honed the block and used a set of old doomed piston and built it for alcohol. He had used a modified holley with larger jets. said that they would play with it and get it set up to run e-85 I thoght that maybehe was a little strange. l
but he said they got it running and ilt was a real runner. sIt was not a daily driver. Just for those weekend blast because it did use alot of fuel

1Gary 12-12-2012 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vinniekq2 (Post 1621930)
I would like to see a detailed article with that claim

X2:thumbup:

hcompton 12-12-2012 10:32 AM

drilling jets is always bad. I have a set of jet drills from a few manuafactures. they never do a job as well as the correct sized jet. Best to buy the right thing. Yes e85 will let you run higher compression and not knock.

You can add a lot of hp to an engine by rasing the compression level but just adding e85 to an engine that already has high compression and the cam to match will not make much of a difference. It might even lower the power you would get. Usally the gain is with adding compression and larger cam to make it run right on the new fuel.

If you use the right cam and change the compression to match while keeping the DCR at the same level you can add hp in buckets. But this does not work well above 10:1.

Yachtsman 12-12-2012 12:46 PM

Cheap power
 
I've took that post and I'm running I started building an 3.0L Ford(UK) Essex engine putting Ford(USA) 200cid pistons in it.but I'm still researching. I search anything about ethanol, bioethanol etc...but until I can make ethanol fuel cheaper than pump Gasoline I'm stuffed. Ethanol blends need to be as cheap as gas and do more MPG. E85 does but only at 10 to 1 plus and gasoline engines are typically 8.5 to 1 Drilling out the jets is bad but most carb manufacturers don't make +40% jets, I even asked. Injected engines are better at cold start. The best option would be use Sunoco E85-R Fuel unless you live in Minnesota and can get E98 mix it with 10% bio-diesel. Build the highest compression motor you can, get the most MPG and the most power.

oldbogie 12-12-2012 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yachtsman (Post 1621926)
I came across a post somewhere, Some hot rod builder was due to rebuild is ride but he was a little strapped being as he'd just gone professional and outfitted his shop. He took his old 351 he'd been using for a while and he converted it to E85, He was already running pistons that gave him a compression ratio of 10.1 but he was buying lots of octane enhancer. All he did was drill out his carb jets and re-time he was done. He lived in Minnesota so he could change to pump gas, get 10hp every digit of compression over standard and return a good MPG. Lucky stiff.

The problem with ethanol is the energy density is about 1/3 less than straight gasoline. This means you've got to burn a third more at 100%. I hazard to calculate where E85 would actually fall in more consumption as it turns out by test rather than than computation that while ethanol has a higher natural octane, when mixed with gasoline the mixtures testable reaction in the test engine does not support an octane increase based upon it's percentage makeup with the gasoline. Which is to say that a little bit on gasoline (premium 91 in the states) is highly distructive to ethanol's natural testable Research octane or almost 109. However, its motor octane is only 90, which is close to the RON+MON/2 figure of 91 octane gasoline.

As for raising compresson getting some amazing power increase, I suggest that author read your escaped countryman David Vizard on that subject. In a nut shell no such thing happens at figures like 10hp for a point of compression unless this was big powerful engine to stat with as a point of compression with no other changes (lots more cam timing) is only worth 2 maybe 3% on a good day. So a 10 horse increase would need a 350-500 horsepower engine to begin with.

In case no one's figured out that the petroleum companies haven't figured out the ratio of power increase or more specifically in their interest, mileage increase, before any of us got there with the idea of higher compression being more fuel efficient; please note that the cost difference in the greater grades of gasoline above regular 87 octane more than offsets the lower consumption of fuel by the engine. This includes the cost difference between regular gasoline and diesel. We've already been out-scammed before driving up to the pump.

Bogie

bowtiemike 12-12-2012 03:55 PM

E85 conv
 
This is an excellent way to use a compression engine and get cheaper fuel, but you cannot achieve this by drilling jets, you need to get a conv kit that comes with different metering plates for your carb E85 requires a 20-30% volume increase over gas but if you are running a 14/1 383 and are stuck buying 114 oct race fuel like one of the cars we play with E85 will save tons of money 114 is over 11.00 a gallon and E85 is 3.00 so even when you factor a 20-30% increase your still ahead of the game the carb kit is about 140.00 and you will need an alch compatible fuel pump and reg there are several mech pumps for 100-140.00 or allstar sells their black pump for about the same im switching every comp engine we run over to E85 if it is higher than 11/1, they also run cooler and cleaner when you break them down in the winter there is a major difference and you can get E85 at almost any speedway,meijer,costco and several other gas stations due to all the new flex fuel cars, hope this helps with your thoughts, Mike

Yachtsman 12-12-2012 04:22 PM

Re; cheap power
 
Quite a few other people, want to want to be driving things apart from electric cars when oil runs out. All the oil companies are putting lots of money into 'Alternative fuels'. what most people forget is that I.C. engines first of all ran on ethanol. Historically Gasoline is the Alternative, even all Henry Ford's Cars until the model A ran on undiluted Moonshine, had Oil not been found in Pennsylvania they still would. Gasoline for cars is no longer a few cents a gallon. Research groups all over the States are looking at liquid fuels that can be used in car engines without much expensive modification. Modern cars have injection systems and an ECU that can adjust the timing widely the new V6 Ecoboost Ford engine should do good mileage on E85 while doing good power.

Yachtsman 12-12-2012 04:45 PM

85 Conv
 
I live in England and have a Webber, I told my agent, but alas no kit, one isn't made drlling though fiddly is my only option.

hcompton 12-12-2012 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yachtsman (Post 1622099)
Quite a few other people, want to want to be driving things apart from electric cars when oil runs out. All the oil companies are putting lots of money into 'Alternative fuels'. what most people forget is that I.C. engines first of all ran on ethanol. Historically Gasoline is the Alternative, even all Henry Ford's Cars until the model A ran on undiluted Moonshine, had Oil not been found in Pennsylvania they still would. Gasoline for cars is no longer a few cents a gallon. Research groups all over the States are looking at liquid fuels that can be used in car engines without much expensive modification. Modern cars have injection systems and an ECU that can adjust the timing widely the new V6 Ecoboost Ford engine should do good mileage on E85 while doing good power.

Isnt the ecoboost e85 compliant in the uk it is in the states and does have wide band and full control of timing and fuel. If you put e85 in it you will have the best mpg the engine will give with e85. Not that it will make more power with e85.

Just rasing compression will not net any power gains. But if you rasie all factors at once you should be able to net almost 100hp per point of compression. More compression will allow you to run more cam once you match the cam up to the compression you get more rpm and more hp or more importantly you get volumetric effecency at a high rpm for a much higher hp gain than at stock rpm near 100 percent ve point. Now as you go up in compression the laws of physics kick in and you get demenished returns the higher you go.

This is very clear if you take a 7:1 big block 454 late 90s pos motor and bounce it up to 10:1 and make cam changes needed to support that you will have gained almost 250hp with that compression upgrade. But everything else needs to lne up for it to work.

Now i have a monkey wrench to toss into your project sorry to say but more compression means more gas as well. More air more fuel no way around it. Even a small change in compression to efi engines can result in the need for a tune and injector upgrades. Add cam and free flowing intake/exhuast and you will get twice the power and use twice the fuel or a 1/4 more power and use 1/4 more fuel. No way around that either. Adding compression increases effecientcy but does not increase mpg. Because of idle time and normal driving gearing needs you will burn more gas for sure.

We all have senn the power levels of american muscle cars many times the big engine was still in the car but had no power cause it had no compression retuning the big v8s from 9:1 to 8:1 or even 7:1 in some cases made the cars get much better milage but was harsh on hp. It took years to get economy back and still make good power. Now they use gears and well controlled fuel system to keep the mpg in check. Put a LS motor with a carb and open exhuast ina car that ways 4000 lbs plus and has a powerglide 2 speed and it will get 8 mpg if your lucky.

In most cases with modern cars the engines are simply smaller and make more power with smaller bores. The efi used to make 300 hp has not gotten that much better than a well tuned carbed engine. Its really a small percent better fuel. Now alot of cars back in the day just ran pig rich so that is one thing that was corrected and shows up in results but really not that much.

hcompton 12-12-2012 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yachtsman (Post 1622108)
I live in England and have a Webber, I told my agent, but alas no kit, one isn't made drlling though fiddly is my only option.

You need to buy a carb setup fpr e85. If your webber is old it will probably get trashed by the ethanol. It will at least eat the seals and gaskets will give out and leak. All rubber will not fair well. Even regular fuel line is not safe from e85 ravages. Best to buy a carb setup for ot from the factory webber probably has a conversion kit or carb built to support e85 running.

One simple and easy to understand problem with drilling the jets. Is you need to make them bigger until they are too big and power goes away. If not the engine could starve for fuel and many bad things can happen over time with high compression the time is much shorter. So once you drill it too large there is no going back. Then you want the same soze that worked the best but you dont know the size. Also some jets are very close in size some really only have a chanfer added and the meetered orifice is just shortened so getting it dailed in will be a night mare.

Now if you want to tune it your self the proper way you will need a full jet kit. I usally buy them for my carbs but they are not really cheap. Then with all the other mods needed it will cost more than just buying proper setup e85 carb.

Now you want more mpg. Then you need less power pulses per mile. Higher hears maybe some timng adjustments and temp adjustments. Will gain you a few mpg in the real world. Add in some short shifting and maybe some areo dynamic updates and you will have saved 4 mpg in the real world with most cars maybe more in realy effecent car. My honda civic usally got 50mpg with short shift and mostly highway driving since it had no options like power steering worth easy 3 mpg and heavy interior updates or ac belts. But only rated at 39 or 38 mpg it was hard to actually get that bad a milage. Now with the current car is the same engine and cam with turbo ot gets about 25-30 mph in the real world. But make more power with less Rpm so should make better mpg but just is not the case.

Sorry for all the long post just trying to help if i can.

cobalt327 12-12-2012 09:48 PM

More compression does not = more gas, all else being equal.

Yachtsman 12-13-2012 04:24 AM

Re: Cheap power
 
On this engine the only change from stock will be the compression. I will change though most every seal, gasket and hose that the new fuel will come in contact with though old this V6 Essex was placed in a Reliant Scimitar and the fuel tank is stainless. the Essex was designed to be both petrol and diesel. The biggest hurdle to the both the States and Europe's mass use of Ethanol as the fuel of choice is MPG something I mean to try to redress. I have come to believe that the cure for the west's 'problems' would be fuel independence. If there is some HP increase that will be nice but not what I'm looking for. The only reason petrol engines are so efficient is that mechanical engineers have had a 100 years to get them so now people are optimising ethanol engines. what mileage are they capable of?

Yachtsman 12-13-2012 05:27 AM

Re: cheap power
 
We must remember that muscle car makers often detuned an engine to fit into a range, as car makers do all over the world. eg BL Group SD1 ~ the Triumph designed OHC 2600 made the same HP as as the aluminium Rover V8 so the engineers detuned it to fit into the range Rover SD1 2000, Rover SD1 2300, Rover SD1 2600 Rover V8 in 30hp steps.:(


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