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-   -   Cheap power Conversion (http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/cheap-power-conversion-227098.html)

Yachtsman 12-12-2012 07:30 AM

Cheap power Conversion
 
I came across a post somewhere, Some hot rod builder was due to rebuild is ride but he was a little strapped being as he'd just gone professional and outfitted his shop. He took his old 351 he'd been using for a while and he converted it to E85, He was already running pistons that gave him a compression ratio of 10.1 but he was buying lots of octane enhancer. All he did was drill out his carb jets and re-time he was done. He lived in Minnesota so he could change to pump gas, get 10hp every digit of compression over standard and return a good MPG. Lucky stiff.

vinniekq2 12-12-2012 07:48 AM

I would like to see a detailed article with that claim

dwwl 12-12-2012 09:24 AM

my local machine shop fella told me that he had built a motor for a guy who wanted a high comprestion motor. he had set of pistons that were domed, so they just honed the block and used a set of old doomed piston and built it for alcohol. He had used a modified holley with larger jets. said that they would play with it and get it set up to run e-85 I thoght that maybehe was a little strange. l
but he said they got it running and ilt was a real runner. sIt was not a daily driver. Just for those weekend blast because it did use alot of fuel

1Gary 12-12-2012 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vinniekq2 (Post 1621930)
I would like to see a detailed article with that claim

X2:thumbup:

Yachtsman 12-12-2012 12:46 PM

Cheap power
 
I've took that post and I'm running I started building an 3.0L Ford(UK) Essex engine putting Ford(USA) 200cid pistons in it.but I'm still researching. I search anything about ethanol, bioethanol etc...but until I can make ethanol fuel cheaper than pump Gasoline I'm stuffed. Ethanol blends need to be as cheap as gas and do more MPG. E85 does but only at 10 to 1 plus and gasoline engines are typically 8.5 to 1 Drilling out the jets is bad but most carb manufacturers don't make +40% jets, I even asked. Injected engines are better at cold start. The best option would be use Sunoco E85-R Fuel unless you live in Minnesota and can get E98 mix it with 10% bio-diesel. Build the highest compression motor you can, get the most MPG and the most power.

BogiesAnnex1 12-12-2012 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yachtsman (Post 1621926)
I came across a post somewhere, Some hot rod builder was due to rebuild is ride but he was a little strapped being as he'd just gone professional and outfitted his shop. He took his old 351 he'd been using for a while and he converted it to E85, He was already running pistons that gave him a compression ratio of 10.1 but he was buying lots of octane enhancer. All he did was drill out his carb jets and re-time he was done. He lived in Minnesota so he could change to pump gas, get 10hp every digit of compression over standard and return a good MPG. Lucky stiff.

The problem with ethanol is the energy density is about 1/3 less than straight gasoline. This means you've got to burn a third more at 100%. I hazard to calculate where E85 would actually fall in more consumption as it turns out by test rather than than computation that while ethanol has a higher natural octane, when mixed with gasoline the mixtures testable reaction in the test engine does not support an octane increase based upon it's percentage makeup with the gasoline. Which is to say that a little bit on gasoline (premium 91 in the states) is highly distructive to ethanol's natural testable Research octane or almost 109. However, its motor octane is only 90, which is close to the RON+MON/2 figure of 91 octane gasoline.

As for raising compresson getting some amazing power increase, I suggest that author read your escaped countryman David Vizard on that subject. In a nut shell no such thing happens at figures like 10hp for a point of compression unless this was big powerful engine to stat with as a point of compression with no other changes (lots more cam timing) is only worth 2 maybe 3% on a good day. So a 10 horse increase would need a 350-500 horsepower engine to begin with.

In case no one's figured out that the petroleum companies haven't figured out the ratio of power increase or more specifically in their interest, mileage increase, before any of us got there with the idea of higher compression being more fuel efficient; please note that the cost difference in the greater grades of gasoline above regular 87 octane more than offsets the lower consumption of fuel by the engine. This includes the cost difference between regular gasoline and diesel. We've already been out-scammed before driving up to the pump.

Bogie

bowtiemike 12-12-2012 03:55 PM

E85 conv
 
This is an excellent way to use a compression engine and get cheaper fuel, but you cannot achieve this by drilling jets, you need to get a conv kit that comes with different metering plates for your carb E85 requires a 20-30% volume increase over gas but if you are running a 14/1 383 and are stuck buying 114 oct race fuel like one of the cars we play with E85 will save tons of money 114 is over 11.00 a gallon and E85 is 3.00 so even when you factor a 20-30% increase your still ahead of the game the carb kit is about 140.00 and you will need an alch compatible fuel pump and reg there are several mech pumps for 100-140.00 or allstar sells their black pump for about the same im switching every comp engine we run over to E85 if it is higher than 11/1, they also run cooler and cleaner when you break them down in the winter there is a major difference and you can get E85 at almost any speedway,meijer,costco and several other gas stations due to all the new flex fuel cars, hope this helps with your thoughts, Mike

Yachtsman 12-12-2012 04:22 PM

Re; cheap power
 
Quite a few other people, want to want to be driving things apart from electric cars when oil runs out. All the oil companies are putting lots of money into 'Alternative fuels'. what most people forget is that I.C. engines first of all ran on ethanol. Historically Gasoline is the Alternative, even all Henry Ford's Cars until the model A ran on undiluted Moonshine, had Oil not been found in Pennsylvania they still would. Gasoline for cars is no longer a few cents a gallon. Research groups all over the States are looking at liquid fuels that can be used in car engines without much expensive modification. Modern cars have injection systems and an ECU that can adjust the timing widely the new V6 Ecoboost Ford engine should do good mileage on E85 while doing good power.

Yachtsman 12-12-2012 04:45 PM

85 Conv
 
I live in England and have a Webber, I told my agent, but alas no kit, one isn't made drlling though fiddly is my only option.

cobalt327 12-12-2012 09:48 PM

More compression does not = more gas, all else being equal.

Yachtsman 12-13-2012 04:24 AM

Re: Cheap power
 
On this engine the only change from stock will be the compression. I will change though most every seal, gasket and hose that the new fuel will come in contact with though old this V6 Essex was placed in a Reliant Scimitar and the fuel tank is stainless. the Essex was designed to be both petrol and diesel. The biggest hurdle to the both the States and Europe's mass use of Ethanol as the fuel of choice is MPG something I mean to try to redress. I have come to believe that the cure for the west's 'problems' would be fuel independence. If there is some HP increase that will be nice but not what I'm looking for. The only reason petrol engines are so efficient is that mechanical engineers have had a 100 years to get them so now people are optimising ethanol engines. what mileage are they capable of?

Yachtsman 12-13-2012 05:27 AM

Re: cheap power
 
We must remember that muscle car makers often detuned an engine to fit into a range, as car makers do all over the world. eg BL Group SD1 ~ the Triumph designed OHC 2600 made the same HP as as the aluminium Rover V8 so the engineers detuned it to fit into the range Rover SD1 2000, Rover SD1 2300, Rover SD1 2600 Rover V8 in 30hp steps.:(

Yachtsman 12-13-2012 06:14 AM

Cheap power
 
I used to own a motor factors when unleaded petrol came to the UK. First all the older mainly British cars burned valves and got junked any older British cars left the fuel seals eroded and gave out when the oil companies started to use ethanol as an octane booster, but every one who said that brass and aluminium parts in cars was proved wrong. Ethanol does erode some rubber parts designed to be used with leaded petrol but the seals in Webber's and Fords generally have seals that were made for many markets and even those in cars as old as mine are nearly always resistant.

gearheadslife 12-13-2012 09:42 AM

when you us a fuel that it take 30% more to do the same as the old fuel and to get a gallon of said fuel takes 2+ gallons of the old fuel to make one gallon of the new fuel..
you are wasting energy..
in other words if you have to burn 2 gallons of fuel to get one gallon and then that one gallon only will go 2/3rd of the same distance as the old fuel you used to form the new fuel..
you can't sustain that.. and it's a fools game..
as far as e85 being cheaper than race fuel.. it is not..
and never will be... you pay the difference in your taxes as they subsidize ethnol.. and that will be on the cutting block as the us is broke..
the true cost of ethnol need to be reported.. cause it is a wastefull fuel to bring to market.. and very costly once you take the subsides away...
you know the subsides everyone wants to take from the oil companies...

Yachtsman 12-13-2012 10:25 AM

Re: cheap power
 
I agree, in the US both the oil companies get a subsidy and the farmers who grow the corn get a subsidy. ALL fuel subsidies should stop! And then research into Brackish water algae would happen. Even now it can make make the raw materials for Ethanol, biodiesel and something that the Australian Air force can use as jet fuel and much cheaper than fossil oil, When I asked a Proffeser at Michigan State the ratio of energy of Ethanol and gasoline he said 70%.


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