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Old 06-11-2010, 04:26 PM
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Cheap Urethane are Lacquers

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenseth17
The basecoat is, well a polyester, but believe is basically a lacquer, would have to talk to a chemist on that though.

Take a rag of lacquer thinner to dbc base without clear on it, and see what happens, even a day later. It will take it right off, heck wax and grease remover will fresh. A urethane wouldn't be phazed that easily after a day of sitting.
But I think its better to use a polyester basecoat then an enamel.
Well that got me thinking, and Guess What? I did the Lacquer thinner test and its true... the cheap Urethanes are basically improved lacquers...I bet the High end products dont do that...Or..?

I am talking about BaseCoat ClearCoat systems, where the Real Urethane is the 2k ClearCoat...

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Old 06-17-2010, 10:57 PM
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correct me if i am wrong did urethane not come from enamel in the beginning?
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Old 06-18-2010, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rag top bird
correct me if i am wrong did urethane not come from enamel in the beginning?
Thats what I thought..... but upon closer research they seem to be closer related to lacquers.....
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Old 06-18-2010, 09:22 PM
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Cheap urethane = lacquer? That is absurd. Are you joking? Just because base will come off with lacquer thinner doesn't make it lacquer. Try acetone, MEK or any other strong solvent. It's going to dissolve it just the same. Even more mild solvents will damage it.

Base coats in some BC/CC systems are not catalyzed. They are the weakest link in a paint system. But, that's the way they are designed.

If you don't want that, then use a SS urethane for the color and spray your clear over that. That is a common practice.

If you continue to post garbage like this on this forum, prepared to get hammered and/or ignored.

Last edited by roger1; 06-18-2010 at 10:34 PM.
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Old 06-18-2010, 09:30 PM
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Totally false statement
Lacquer dries by solvent evaporation
Urethane dries by a catalyst
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Old 06-18-2010, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artsvettes
Urethane dries by a catalyst
That is not quite accurate.
Urethanes have solvent in them and dry when it evaporates out like a lacquer does. The catalyst is a hardener that reacts with the paint and the curing process is slower.
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Old 06-19-2010, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger1
Cheap urethane = lacquer? That is absurd. Are you joking? Just because base will come off with lacquer thinner doesn't make it lacquer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by artsvettes
Totally false statement
Lacquer dries by solvent evaporation
Urethane dries by a catalyst

Quote:
Originally Posted by roger1
That is not quite accurate.
Urethanes have solvent in them and dry when it evaporates out like a lacquer does. .
Thats right, a base coat that has not being catalyzed will come off with Lacquer thiner...

Quote:
Originally Posted by roger1
If you continue to post garbage like this on this forum, prepared to get hammered and/or ignored.
Well I am glad your not a mod Sir... and you are also very Rude if I may add...
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Old 06-19-2010, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waterdude
Well I am glad your not a mod Sir... and you are also very Rude if I may add...
If calling someone out on making a statement that is totally wrong is rude, then I'm fine with that.
There's nothing wrong with asking a question that may sound absurd. But you made a ridiculous statement when you obviously don't know what are talking about. I call that garbage.

I am certainly not perfect and could possibly post something incorrect that I believed was correct when I posted it. If I did this, I would sure be embarrassed and want to be called out on it. I wouldn't care if tact was used or not on that either. I certainly try hard to be accurate when I do make a posting though.

You are obviously young and inexperienced. And, this forum is a great place to learn. I know I have. There are some pretty good guys on here that are willing to share their knowledge. Some of these guys are professionals with years of experience. They don't like to have their intelligence insulted but still monitor and post just so they can save someone from making mistakes. And, I have observed through the years all the abuse they have to take from inexperienced know-it-alls and childish behavior. We owe those guys a lot for not saying to hell with it and just leaving this site.

It would serve you better if you asked questions and observed before posting statements acting like you know things. Filling out your profile is a beneficial thing as well. Members that leave their profile blank like yours sends a negative message right off the bat.
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Old 06-19-2010, 09:18 PM
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Roger you are absolutely right!!!!

Frank Cox
Cox Custom Cars
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Old 06-20-2010, 06:57 AM
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I have been dieing to answer this but at risk of being barred, the poster of this is only posting this to start crap, that is all he has ever done and I would not give him 2 cents of my time.

For you that want to know, about as related as you are to apes, close but lots of changes hopefully. (excluding waterdude)

I'm not good using the search engines but someone may try the term "catalyzed lacquer" "Appliance enamel", "Appliance catalyzed lacquer"
"History of enamel" Some more ideas but this goes back so far, terms may have no need to show up.
and most interesting would be the relationship to appliances and way enamel term came about.

Last I heard this term was at a refresher class at Rolla a few years ago, and it shocked me the professor brought it up as not heard it for 30 years, so don't know if its on Internet or not.

Waterdud, if you are from Africa, that is the reason you still are a third world country and in my book should just be blown up, as you are wasting air and adding to the pollution.

Last edited by BarryK; 06-20-2010 at 04:57 PM. Reason: Adding other search ideas.
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Old 06-20-2010, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryK
I'm not good using the search engines but someone may try the term "catalyzed lacquer"
and most interesting would be the relationship to appliances and way enamel term came about.
Last I heard this term was at a refresher class at Rollo a few years ago, and it shocked me the professor brought it up as not heard it for 30 years, so don't know if its on Internet or not.
I just googled the terms and could not find anything about it. The only thing that came up was "pre-catalyzed lacquer" that are for finishing wood. Looks like there are a few of those products presently on the market.
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Old 06-20-2010, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waterdude
Well that got me thinking, and Guess What? I did the Lacquer thinner test and its true... the cheap Urethanes are basically improved lacquers...I bet the High end products dont do that...Or..?

I am talking about BaseCoat ClearCoat systems, where the Real Urethane is the 2k ClearCoat...
What may have you mixed up is that doing a lacquer thinner test on a urethane and finding paint on your rag only means that it is:

1. A very poor quality urethene that doesn't fully cure.

2. An improperly mixed urethane that didn't fully cure.

Number two is THE MOST common by FAR. I have seen urethane paint jobs that you could do the lacquer thinner rag test and take it to primer in a couple of swipes! Take the painr COMPLETELY OFF with just a couple of rubs with the rag!

Then turn around and do the test on a car shot by the very same product parked next to that one and get ZERO color on the rag!

Why, because the first one was shot by a moron who was what we call a "junior chemist" who changed the mixing ratio and ended up with Playdough on the car instead of a cured urethane paint.

Some low end catalized products even when mixed properly will still soften a little with a the lacquer thinner rub test and you will get a little color on the rag. That doesn't mean they are lacquer for goodness sakes. It only means they didn't fully cure like they should. Leaving out some hardener doesn't "turn it into" some other chemical make up! It simply means the molecules weren't totally "linked" as it would with a quality product.

But honestly, the most common reason for this is not being mixed properly.

The basecoat in many systems isn't catalyzed at all so it isn't going to survive the rub test.

Brian

Last edited by MARTINSR; 06-20-2010 at 10:51 AM.
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Old 06-20-2010, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
What may have you mixed up is that doing a lacquer thinner test on a urethane and finding paint on your rag only means that it is:
Brian
He was only talking about the base in bc/cc systems. Some bases do not use a catalyst. Of course these will be dissolved with lacquer thinner.
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Old 06-20-2010, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger1
He was only talking about the base in bc/cc systems. Some bases do not use a catalyst. Of course these will be dissolved with lacquer thinner.
LOL, I just added that line in my post but it was before I read your post, sorry. Yep, they are more of a "glorified enamel"

Brian
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Old 06-20-2010, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger1
you obviously don't know what are talking about. I call that garbage..
Sir I did not made that GARBAGE up, I actually heard that HERE in this forum many times... and I did not said they were plain lacquers but probably emproved Polyester based paint(emproved lacquers)

here are some Quotes I got from here

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcclark
If they would make lacquer into a 2K product
(takes an activator) it would be better.
(Then it wouldn't keep shrinking for months.)

If they would take the brittleness out of it so it didn't
easily chip-make it more flexible it would be even better.

Guess what, they did just that, changed everything that was bad about
lacquer- IT'S CALLED URETHANE
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenseth17
I believe anything from a lacquer to a urethane can be made from polyester. And believe basecoat has better propertys then lacquers of old, basecoat has some flexability and with todays basecoats and clear urethanes you don't see to many using flex additives as they really aren't needed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryK
In a short, lacquer has polyester in it as does base coats.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryK
************************************************** **
All of them start out as Polyester (lacquer) and than taken from there as far as if blender is in the tints or added later,
THATS where the magic is in the blender of course if its mixed with the tints to start with your more limited. One of the most unique systems was the UTech system. You may have seen it system was pure tint. so off one system you could make laquer or polyurethane!!
this is a Quote I got from the Autobodystore.com forums
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyPtr View Post
Also urethane basecoats are more chemically related to lacquers, not enamels. Hope this helps.


and I finish this with this
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenseth17
Again just rambling, and giving my thoughts and sure I could be wrong. Lacquer has become such a dirty word, that when someone mentions a basecoat being anything near lacquer based and it creates a stir. I think its all moot anyways. PPG DBU and DBC I think we both would agree are good bases, and we should concentrate on figuring out how to use the products correctly and what works best for us, and probably best to leave the chemistry part to the chemists.
Sorry guys...
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