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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2008, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barnym17
CNCDude I agree there are much better heads out there, but it seems like anyone mentions double hump heads on here they are immediatley told to get rid of em. They are just so much scrap metal and that just ain't true ,if you are looking for a mild build in the 400 horse range they work well.I also agree not to put a bunch of money in a set with vortecs available so cheap.My point is I would be willing to bet many crate motors out there with modern heads etc. people are touting and putting in rods today might just find it difficult to outrun a 355 or 327 cammed correctly with these heads.
They definately don't get a lot of respect these days for sure. Maybe they are just from an era to far removed from peoples memory. I'd say many people see them at swap meets and car shows for sale, and probably for decent prices and just keep walking because they are trying to compare them with current technology....perhaps!

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2008, 08:56 PM
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Yeah I remember when they were all we had but the Ford guys sure hated them. Never was a windsor head that would run with em factory. My neighbors 79 z28 ran a 13.08 this fall at trails with a comp 292 hyd. cam and what turned out to be 8.0 to 1 comp. We have since bumped comp. a leetle bit to the 13.5 to 1 range hoping for a mid 12 in a 3400 lb car.Of course I realize nowdays any car with a sticker and fart can can go 9's but I remember when 12 was fast.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2008, 10:12 PM
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Times have changed for sure!
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Old 05-05-2008, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techron
i call BS on this statement, 18 YO kid, 500 HP out of old 461 fuelie heads??? does he even know what 500 HP feels like???
my gasser has extensively reworked, radically ported fuelly 461s and i figure 400 HP tops, i went with the fuelly heads for authenticity. 400 HP out of the heads--a 200 HP shot of nitrous--===600 HP. sounds about right for a period correct gasser.

DISCLAIMER: your results may vary, but 500 HP out of 461s is a pipe dream.
come down out of the ozone kid and join us in the real world--->

I agree. Fuelie heads will never make anything close to 500, UNLESS you are some kind of porting wizard, like David Vizard. Case in point; I run with a guy who has a similar car to mine (early 70s Camaro), and our engines are same displacement, 355, with very similar cams. The two big differences are trannies; mine's a stick & his is auto, and heads. I have ported fuelies, big valves, all the bowl work, etc., and he has Dart Sportsmans out of the box. From the line, I pull him up till about 4500, then he winds out faster than me, and pulls ahead by about 2 cars at the top of the quarter. His advantage: top end; mine: torque (gears). I also run way more compression than him. Fuelies will work for up to about 370-400 horse, but that's about their limit.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2008, 08:29 AM
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Humpy back camels and some chimpanzees... Wow!
Some of the better head guys in the country might get 4XXHP out of those dinosaur heads but the runner is small, tiny. I have people say to me 'I have double humps', and I tell them, 'sell 'em or junk 'em and get some real heads'. That kid who is making 500HP (Horse Piles) with 461 heads...hmmm, maybe with some 416's!
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2008, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stroke
. I have people say to me 'I have double humps', and I tell them, 'sell 'em or junk 'em and get some real heads'.

Or sell them to me and I will find a guy whose class of Oval track racing limits him to these stock Gm type of heads.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2008, 11:25 AM
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Neither. Use a vortec head and have more power than either of those heads.

Last edited by scapegoat; 05-06-2008 at 11:35 AM.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2008, 03:18 PM
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Last couple dozen or so I've seen, half of 'em have been 'crackers', that's why I tell 'em to see them later. IMO, too much money to spend on old heads when there are much better chambers/castings/performance available for the money, even from the 170ish runner sizes 'out of the box'. I think I'm tired of hearing about those heads mostly (decades). Some folks still think they are some kind of treasure, that's what I'm talking about.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2008, 05:45 PM
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To answer the O.P's question, they'll move the same amount of air. It doesn't matter how many humps they have or how big the humps are.



I still have three sets of '291 heads. One set is VERY heavily modified, like was mentioned earlier, for a Super Stock engine and the other two sets are just nice old castings that will find a home on a restoration project that requires them to be correct.

I know that my ported heads can make 480 or so hp with the right parts, they've done so. Again, as it was mentioned earlier in this post, if you wanted a set like this today it would cost $4000-5000 to get them in the same shape.

With Vortec heads so easily obtainable, to take a set of these old heads and throw money at them, just so you can say you have them on your engine, is just plain stupid. No offense intended to anybody in the general vicinity.



Larry
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2009, 03:30 PM
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Ok guys, sorry to dig up such an old thread but I need some info and have some very curious questions about these heads and there "horsepower cap". The main reason I am running these heads for now is a sentimental issue (uncle gave them to me before he passed away) and I do plan to upgrade eventually, but they will suffice for now.

Don't laugh here, but desktop dyno shows me making 528hp at 6k and 516 ft/lbs at 4500. I know DD isn't the most accurate tool in the world, but it works for simple R&D. This motor is in its final stages of assembly now, all the parts are in except for rockers, oil pan/pump, distributor, and some other minor stuff.

I'm not claiming to be an expert or that I know everything there is to to know about motors, but I really believe that this is fairly close and should put around 450-475hp to the tires.

Here are the specs on the motor:

Short Block;

400 SBC bored .030, engine works main girdle
engine works (forgot actual brand name) forged 3.48 stroke crank
comp bearing spacers
pdq? 6'' forged i-beam rods
keith black performance forged flat top pistons, 4.5? cc valve reliefs
clevite coated race bearings
screens to keep junk off the cam
Crank balanced by Billy Albert of Albert Racing Engines, Rural Retreat Va
Engine Works Moly Rings, filled for a +250 shot of the juice
Engine Works True Double Roller Timing Set (there most expensive one, seemed to be best bang for $$$ 14X)

Cam Specs:
Comp 4/7 Firing Swap, Pro Plasma Nitriding, Solid Flat Tappet
.520/.540 lift @ .050
244/252 duration
110 LSA/ 108 Intake Center Line
PN: 12-664-47

Heads:
462 Double Hump Castings
2.02/1.6 valves
Balls out port work.... 25+ hours sitting with the grinder
8 hours polish work
Bowls Blended, Short Turns reworked, smooth radius around valve guides, runners opened up and matched to intake, combustion chambers smoothed out of polished, shroud work done. (On desktop I increased all flow numbers by 5-7 to account for port work, a bit on the liberal side with the numbers)
Bronze Valve Guides
3 Angle Valve Job
ARP Screw in Studs 7/16
PDQ? Roller Rockers 1.6 ratio (still need to buy) Stainless Steel
Shaved .020, believe to be 64cc chambers

Oiling System:

Only have the coolers now... and I have about 40... all off of new model Chrysler products.
Plan on getting a high capacity baffled oil pan w/ windage trays and a Melling high volume/high pressure oil pump.
Remote Oil Filter (K&N Filter)
Possibly Extra Pump after cooler
Amsoil 30wt racing oil w/ comp break in at all times

Induction:

Holley Street Dominator Intake, major port and polish work.
2'' spacer I made in machine shop, looks sorta like the airaid tb spacers
Mighty Demon 850cfm carb, all casting edges polished off, going to be jetted way down...i got a good deal... $75

Exhaust:

Flowtech Afterburner Headers
Flowmaster 40 series, 2 1/2'' or 3'' not sure yet
Cutouts

Now for the questions.

Am I looking at 500+ hp at the flexplate, or are the double humps going to kill the motor? I know I nice set of AFRs or Dart Pro1s with a really good intake will bring the motor to life, possibly over 600hp; but how will this current setup respond?

Sorry this was so long, I'm stuck in my Thursday night 3hr religion class and I'm about to kill myself with my laptop...
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2009, 05:19 PM
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I'd say "maybe"(you're close) 500 at the crank if your port work is as good as you think. I hear ya on the 25+ hours grinding, you've got to remove a lot of iron in those heads. If the Holley intake is the single plane Street Dom then it's hurting you no matter what you do to it.
The fact that you have 377 cubes helps, but DD is a toy and roughly 10%+ optimistic. If it does make 500 hp, it for sure will be closer to 7000-7300 rpm to get it.
Don't jet the Demon down until you've run it and it shows that it needs it, you will probably find it to be pretty close in it's stock form unless someone has already messed it up.
Most of your combo looks pretty good, but FYI the intake, cam size, and headers won't get you 600hp even with the good heads.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2009, 05:26 PM
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Desktop dyno is pretty out of date. I think the latest version is from 2000.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2009, 08:43 PM
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Are there any decent new dyno sims out there?
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 02-27-2009, 12:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackson72ss
Are there any decent new dyno sims out there?
Superflow....is the most accurate!
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 02-27-2009, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackson72ss
Ok guys, sorry to dig up such an old thread but I need some info and have some very curious questions about these heads and there "horsepower cap". The main reason I am running these heads for now is a sentimental issue (uncle gave them to me before he passed away) and I do plan to upgrade eventually, but they will suffice for now.

Don't laugh here, but desktop dyno shows me making 528hp at 6k and 516 ft/lbs at 4500. I know DD isn't the most accurate tool in the world, but it works for simple R&D. This motor is in its final stages of assembly now, all the parts are in except for rockers, oil pan/pump, distributor, and some other minor stuff.

I'm not claiming to be an expert or that I know everything there is to to know about motors, but I really believe that this is fairly close and should put around 450-475hp to the tires.

Here are the specs on the motor:

Short Block;

400 SBC bored .030, engine works main girdle
engine works (forgot actual brand name) forged 3.48 stroke crank
comp bearing spacers
pdq? 6'' forged i-beam rods
keith black performance forged flat top pistons, 4.5? cc valve reliefs
clevite coated race bearings
screens to keep junk off the cam
Crank balanced by Billy Albert of Albert Racing Engines, Rural Retreat Va
Engine Works Moly Rings, filled for a +250 shot of the juice
Engine Works True Double Roller Timing Set (there most expensive one, seemed to be best bang for $$$ 14X)

Cam Specs:
Comp 4/7 Firing Swap, Pro Plasma Nitriding, Solid Flat Tappet
.520/.540 lift @ .050
244/252 duration
110 LSA/ 108 Intake Center Line
PN: 12-664-47

Heads:
462 Double Hump Castings
2.02/1.6 valves
Balls out port work.... 25+ hours sitting with the grinder
8 hours polish work
Bowls Blended, Short Turns reworked, smooth radius around valve guides, runners opened up and matched to intake, combustion chambers smoothed out of polished, shroud work done. (On desktop I increased all flow numbers by 5-7 to account for port work, a bit on the liberal side with the numbers)
Bronze Valve Guides
3 Angle Valve Job
ARP Screw in Studs 7/16
PDQ? Roller Rockers 1.6 ratio (still need to buy) Stainless Steel
Shaved .020, believe to be 64cc chambers

Oiling System:

Only have the coolers now... and I have about 40... all off of new model Chrysler products.
Plan on getting a high capacity baffled oil pan w/ windage trays and a Melling high volume/high pressure oil pump.
Remote Oil Filter (K&N Filter)
Possibly Extra Pump after cooler
Amsoil 30wt racing oil w/ comp break in at all times

Induction:

Holley Street Dominator Intake, major port and polish work.
2'' spacer I made in machine shop, looks sorta like the airaid tb spacers
Mighty Demon 850cfm carb, all casting edges polished off, going to be jetted way down...i got a good deal... $75

Exhaust:

Flowtech Afterburner Headers
Flowmaster 40 series, 2 1/2'' or 3'' not sure yet
Cutouts

Now for the questions.

Am I looking at 500+ hp at the flexplate, or are the double humps going to kill the motor? I know I nice set of AFRs or Dart Pro1s with a really good intake will bring the motor to life, possibly over 600hp; but how will this current setup respond?

Sorry this was so long, I'm stuck in my Thursday night 3hr religion class and I'm about to kill myself with my laptop...
You say you increased the flow #'s by 5-7....from what , to what? Also adding a 2.02 valve to these heads, seriously shrouds the valve, and actually hurts the flow. The 327 fuelie heads were machined in the chamber to unshroud the larger 2.02 valves they came with from the factory. Keep in mind, these heads were designed to run with 283 and 327 cubic inches....45 years ago! Every year a new casting was introduced that surpassed the previous head in flow and technology of the time. Those heads have very small runners compared to even a stock head of today, because they were designed for much smaller engines. Unless you actually flowed the head to even see where you are to establish any kind of a baseline or starting point to enter data into DD, the results it gives you are going to be meaningless....and inflated. Don't think you can compare this head to a modern Vortec or Bowtie just because you spent time and effort making improvements, even what you have done still hasn't made it equal to either one of these out of the box. I think this head would have been better suited for a 350 at the most, its just going to be too small for a 400 to be able to reach your goal....probably by more than 50-75 HP. Its hard to concieve that a stock Vortec head of today is that vastly superior to a ported 461 or 462, but thats just how advanced the technology has come in 45 years. Even by the late 60's and early 70's, the 461/462 already had no less than (3) production heads that made them virtually obsolete even then. Sorry its probably not what your wanting to hear....but it is what it is!

Last edited by CNC-Dude; 02-27-2009 at 12:55 AM.
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