[Rob Keller]

Howdy Y'all.

Well to start this one off I wish to put as much information on this subject as possible .

I will start off with something I inadvertently learned today.

Please feel free to add any & all pertinent information .
No matter how small & insignificant it might seem.

I hope for this tread to be a good place to start writing a WIKI from.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We all have heard @ one time or another that cringing make you want to scream poorly adjusted Chevy starter

Recently {last month or two} I had read a thread {can't remember where} about a feller that was having real bad problems & it went as far as people grinding the block or starter to make the thing work.
Remember that one ?{please link me up}

So today I had to pick up a starter I went to Car Quest & was confronted with which one do you need?
the 3510S
or the 3510MS?

While comparing the units which are very different from the nose cone back .

Carole
{One of my all time favorite parts ladies} looked in one more book for me then she noticed that the 3510S used STANDARD {SAE} Bolts while the
3510MS employs METRIC Bolts.

Now I don't know how many people have know this information but , to me this make me think that most of these starter issues can be stripped back to this mounting problem.

There has to be a big difference from a 3/8th knurled GM starter bolt & a 10mm one {i guess}

I will take pictures of the 2 & mark the differences when I go back.


Please fell free to post away {just try to keep on the topic as much a possible}



R

[staleg]

A while back the starter stopped working on my daily driver, a '95 Chevy Astro.
Luckily I had an Ebay bought ministarter mounted on my half finished hot rod project sm, so while I were waiting for my new OEM starter, i took the small one and put it on the Astro.
The ministarter has shorter bolts then the OEM starter, so I had to use the bolts supplied with the ministarter instead of the OEM bolts.

The ministarter bolts were just oridinary bolts. No grade 5 or 8 marking and no knurled area above the threads.

Next day the problem started and it was not when I cranked the motor. It was during driving: During accleration and driving steep uphills the bendix screw on the starter grinded slightly against the flexplate. Not much, just a week sound.
I took off the starter and made a shim between the starter and the machined aliminium block that fastens the starter to the motor. Then I moved the starter a little forward and away from the flexplate. Problem solved - for a while...
After app 14 days. The grinding started again. Weaker than before, but certanly there. By then I had received my OEM starter, so I just put that one on.
But what happened to the ministarter during the 14 days?
The starter itself had worked excellent except this.

My theory is the bolts. They are too thin, soft and the couldn't hold the amount of power and flexed more and more.
I could probably shimmed one or two times more and then the bolts would have broken.

[Rob Keller]

The pictures I mentioned.

As you can see the Digital Caliper tells the difference between the 2 different nose cones ,also the paper clip will not fit in the one.

The rule of thumb is to pay the core charge & if necessary change out the cone if you can not get the right starter for your block.





R

[RossR90]

If I understand your post right your having some grinding sounds from your starter. I just posted a problem w/ my starter grinding on start up on the engine forum. I would get it to start but eventually it would grind again. I replaced the starter mounting bolts, the old ones were worn on the knurled areas. The new ones actually gripped the started and fit more snug. I just did this today and it seemed to help so far. Try brand new bolts.

[302 Z28]

I had a cheap mini starter on my 34 that would grind after starting. The bendix was slow to pull out after starting, the noise was quite irritating. Found out this is a common problem with cheap mini starters. I eventually replaced it with a Powermaster Ultra Torque, problem solved.

Vince

[Rob Keller]

Originally Posted by RossR90

If I understand your post right your having some grinding sounds from your starter. I just posted a problem w/ my starter grinding on start up on the engine forum. I would get it to start but eventually it would grind again. I replaced the starter mounting bolts, the old ones were worn on the knurled areas. The new ones actually gripped the started and fit more snug. I just did this today and it seemed to help so far. Try brand new bolts.

Errr ...um ... No.

What I tried to post in that thread & what you are missing in this one is:

There are TWO different starters.

One is Metric & the other is SAE {standard} look @ this Pix.







And then this one.



See how the paper clip will not fit with the Proper bolt?

Now times that by 2 & the starter will never stay put the rear brackets will not help if the correct bolts are not in place.





R

[Cape Cod Bob]

I don't have anything to add but am learning more. Great thread.
Question, if anyone can help.
What is the difference between a 153 tooth starter and a 168 tooth starter.
Reason for the ? is I have a '86 5.7(350) out of a 2500 pu and am trying to get the correct starter for it.
I have a 168 tooth flexplate.
I have an older starter that I tried using and it jams.
Do I need a starter that is 86 or newer. The men at the boneyard think I'm nuts when I talk about the difference in tooths on the flexplate.
Also I used ordiary hardware store bolts (hardened) to mount it, MUST I use the knurled bolts?
Or do I just nreed to shim the starter?

[Rob Keller]

Flywheels with two different diameters are used on Chevrolet small-block V~8, big-block V~8, and V~6/90-degree engines.

Large flywheels are 14" in diameter, and have 168 teeth on the starter ring gear.

Starter noses used with large diameter flywheels have two offset bolt holes.

Small diameter flywheels are 12-3/4" in diameter, and have starter ring gears with 153 teeth.

Starters for small flywheels have two bolt holes which are paralleled to the back of the block.


The difference in flywheel diameters requires two different starter housings.


This nose is the part of the starter that moves the starter motor in closer to the flywheel on the 153 tooth and farther out away from the flywheel on the 168 tooth wheels.

Most Chevrolet blocks are drilled for both types of starters. If you are changing the diameter of your flywheel, you can convert your present starter to fit the new flywheel by installing the appropriate starter nose .

The Knurled starter bolts are a must. The knurled part holds the starter in place it is actually a bit wider to keep the starter from shifting.

Keep in mind the difference of the metric & SAE bolt Dia.

Doc here,

Order a SET of NEW 350 Starter bolts from GM, If you look, those are knurled..after so many changes, they no longer fit..and give the starter "Wiggle" room..

Also, If not using it, get a rear brace for the starter..

A open inspection hole will contribute to the noise level.


Doc

__________________


R

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by Rob Keller

The pictures I mentioned.

As you can see the Digital Caliper tells the difference between the 2 different nose cones ,also the paper clip will not fit in the one.

The rule of thumb is to pay the core charge & if necessary change out the cone if you can not get the right starter for your block.

R

Rob,

Outstanding observation. 3/8" vs. 10mm holes. Who'da thunk it?

[Rob Keller]

Originally Posted by joe_padavano

Rob,

Outstanding observation. 3/8" vs. 10mm holes. Who'da thunk it?

Actually Carol my favorite parts lady is partially responsible for the discovery.

The"different part #s gave it away.

{Sarcasm here}
I posses the skill to communicate with some parts people.

Mechanic's/Technicians speak one language & parts people speak another.

Very rare that the 2 get together on the same line of communication

66GMC is another favorite of mine but he lives in Canada EH?

I am hoping to compile all the info I can to write a WIKI.




R

[Cape Cod Bob]

Thanx for responding.
I got a starter for this 86 motor and put the 68 aside for now (think I may have cooked it anyway). I put it in and the pinion fits nicely when activated by hand, BUT, when I release it it does not fully retract!
So I added some shim just to srr if that would help and it still does not fully retract.
I applied power and it seems to jamb. I am not sure my battery is fully charged so it is on the trickler fot the night.
Mind you this is not a running motor yet. Plugs are out and it is not wired.
thanx

[hickey's got a yami]

i have an 85 trans am with a 305 HO carb. i had my starter chip a tooth on my fly wheel and after a while i had to change both. i put a fly wheel on from a 74 nova 6 cl its a small one and i put a starter on from something i had. it sounded like i needed shims or the starter was weak. 1 week went by and the starter will not conect at all with out shims and it works fine in and out. so i got pissed off and now i gave up. i had to pull the y pipe or the motor or the trany to get the starter out the first time. i pulled the trany cause the ypipe bolts were rusted and im cheap. i got a crate motor going in and headers and y pipe going in. the first thing i did was take a saw to the old y pipe.
now what i just read i need the rite bolts and starter for my car? that would have saved hours of my beer time.
thanks

[Bryan59EC]

Rob----

Might want to add that on the 168 tooth flywheel and starter, the the nose cone of the starter is different between and auto trans and a manual trans on many applications.

An AT trans starter (168 tooth) will not fit into '621' bellhousing.

[Rob Keller]

Good point Bryan .



Thank You!

When using shims you need to have 1/8" clearance, a drill bit or Allen wrench works well for this.






R

[Cape Cod Bob]

So, which is it ? 1/8th" or a paper clip for clearence?

I shimmed the starter down with washers , charged the battery. Cranks but has that hi whine sound and still does not fully retract when I let go of the button.As soon as I turn the flexplate by hand it kicks out . So I am assuming if it were to start that it would kick out.