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  #241 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2012, 10:20 PM
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I think both sides have very interesting things to say, which is good. It has made for a good reading.


But this latest discussion on this thread seems heated from the very beginning, and definitely getting off topic. What say we take a break before anymore feelings are hurt and things are said based solely on high emotions? The Volt/electric car isn't worth being so upset over, is it?


I enjoy a good debate. But I don't like to see friends fight. It's been a good discussion. Let's keep it from turning into a battle for the last word.


P.S. If anyone feels he or she has said all that could be said, then it is a good idea to leave it be, and not sabotage one's own argument.


Have a nice rest of the weekend everyone.

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  #242 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2012, 10:25 PM
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Brian,

An advantage to living on the left coast, we generally get the last word, then tomorrow morning others get the first word.

I can't understand why some folks are so reticent to change. I have always embraced change and in my past line of work I had to communicate in two other languages other than English. I only had the conversational skills of a 5th grader, but could still be understood.

Bob
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  #243 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 05:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deckofficer
Brian,

An advantage to living on the left coast, we generally get the last word, then tomorrow morning others get the first word.

I can't understand why some folks are so reticent to change. I have always embraced change and in my past line of work I had to communicate in two other languages other than English. I only had the conversational skills of a 5th grader, but could still be understood.

Bob

Human nature resists change.

Until I had a company supplied fuel injected car to drive I absolutely hated the idea of computers in cars.

I however found the FI car to run so well that it changed my out look. I won't go back to carbs.

I was the same about fuel injection and ECM's then and I am probably the same now towards electric cars.

I'm sure if I drove an electric, I would love the immediate torque but I don't think I could ever get into recharging my car at night or dealing with batteries.

And if you don't like hot dogs, well that's just anti American.
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  #244 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 06:31 AM
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I would guess similar conversations happened when the gas powered buggy/ horseless carriage was making it's first appearances.

It has been proven time after time, there is not a better all around means of powering a vehicle than gasoline.

If the true cost of gasoline was charged at the pump, there would be very, very few who could afford to use it. Think of the BILLIONS (likely trillions) spent propping up dictators in the Middle East to the military costs of wars and patrolling that part of the world to protect the flow of oil. Oh, and the lives lost for oil.
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  #245 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 06:52 AM
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"OK, GM, people aren't buying your vehicles and you need to make a loan?"

"Yes"

"Well, we don't have any money and are also in debt up to our preverbials so we'll use the tax payers money"

"Thanks, but they're still not buying our cars"

"You don't understand, they paid for them - - - they just don't own them"

(why would any Patriotic taxpaying citizen not step up and buy a Volt for the good of the ?Country? - - - - it's just shameful )
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  #246 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 06:56 AM
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I don't think anyone is against an electric car. I think everyone has had their fill of mandates.

Chevy's bail out came with government control; it's what they do. When I started a business everyone said their is a lot of "free" government money out there. Where there is a lot of government money but it's not free and it comes with government control.

What did the government in Chevy get us? They gave them bail outs, gave the company to the Unions, mandated things like the Volt they would build, fired dealerships which did not support the right congressman, and on and on and on.

Sales pitches for the volt has been good but the reports by individuals has but much less. Far worse range, battery cost, disposal, etc. An electric car is not the same as any other car in your driveway. You almost have to have a garage, charging station $$$, a plan for traveling or usage, etc.

I don't think anyone on a hot rod board is against electrics or things different.

If ANYTHING we want electrics to come about on their own Merritt on their own accord; and many are. Just like home built airplanes leading the aviation industry in MANY advancements such as composites, the "hot rodder" or home engineer has lead the electric car.

There are many applications for electric "vehicles" which are doing well on their own BECAUSE there is no government involvement. These products develop out of need and desire by the customer not the government. One thing lends to another.

For instance we have a small guy locally who converts the electric Polaris to coal mine transports which look like dune buggy's. VERY COOL! In the car hobby their are car/motorcycle drag racers, race cars, utility vehicles, etc. All of this moves to the next level on it's own merit.

Many projects are obsolete before built which lead to the next thing which is more viable. For instance, in aviation the Lear fan was suppose to be the first composite corporate airplane. When built it was already obsolete. Bill died and his wife kept perpetuating it and nearly bankrupted the company when it should have died.

The engineers from Lear then developed the Beech Starship which was ALMOST a worth while venture. They could not sell enough to support them and ended up buying them all back.

This technology has developed the Raytheon Pemier which has a market and is sustainable (even with problems and less then expected performance).

On a natural path, things develop!


The government getting involved in the Chevy volt has stopped the natural progress of commercialization. The government gave the Chevy volt a poison pill.

Let it die or what ever the market dictates.
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  #247 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 06:59 AM
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I also cringe when I see what a Volt really cost....US. Government money to GM for building it, $7,500 rebate to buy one (all our money), GM getting $50 billion in tax breaks, etc. How does this fair with other companies trying to compete?

I can't afford for some one else to buy a Volt. There is too much of my "free" money in their purchase!
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  #248 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 07:03 AM
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Good Points gow589 - - -
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  #249 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deckofficer
Brian,

An advantage to living on the left coast, we generally get the last word, then tomorrow morning others get the first word.

I can't understand why some folks are so reticent to change. I have always embraced change and in my past line of work I had to communicate in two other languages other than English. I only had the conversational skills of a 5th grader, but could still be understood.

Bob

You Just don't stop do You ???

If you think for one Min that these Changes are going to save the word... Your in for a rude awaking...

Or is it that your stock's will go up ???
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  #250 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 08:06 AM
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i'm just not into driving a golfcart down the road. maybe in 10 years or so they will have something that is cost efficient and will actually save you some money. right now it is all about pleasing the tree huggers . electric cars will be great in the big cities but will never gain ground in the country.
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  #251 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 10:17 AM
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I've said this before but it bears repeating. When you drive a vehicle powered by gasoline, you, the end user, have no choice but to purchase gasoline because you can not roll your own. With a car powered by electricity you are able to produce the product that your car runs on. Thanks to China entering the solar panel market, today you can purchase solar panels for $1.13 per watt vs the $5.00 per watt I paid for my sailboat. Think of it this way, nobody even knows the life span of a solar panel because all that have been produced over the last 50 years are still putting out rated output. So now you have invested in a energy producing product that can be passed on to your family's future generations, powering their home and vehicles. I really don't think the oil companies want to share with you, the common man, the ability to produce energy.

Why would anyone not want to embrace this type of independence? For a family just making ends meet, look how much they are impacted by the current upswing in energy costs. This increase cuts into discretionary spending, that spending on goods you want but don't need. The economy would recover at a much faster rate if folks had the money to buy items they wanted but don't need. The oil companies are keeping you from this.
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  #252 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 10:35 AM
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look , i'm sorry but in this part of the world if your having trouble buying fuel you sure as hell cant by a 40k dollar car. in the real world people buy 10 year old cars and drive them til they quit.your greenie way of life is 20 years away.
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  #253 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shine
look , i'm sorry but in this part of the world if your having trouble buying fuel you sure as hell cant by a 40k dollar car. in the real world people buy 10 year old cars and drive them til they quit.your greenie way of life is 20 years away.
Well, you and I could live that long, so it is within our life time. I'm good with that.
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  #254 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 10:42 AM
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Wish I could believe it is as rosy as you make it out to be. First I have never paid $40,000 for a car such as the volt, a car which already has $7500 in tax breaks to the consumer and government money to get the price that low.

Second, solar panels and wind turbines simply have not lived up to the hype. I have flown all over the country and wind turbines all over are sitting idle; so much so land owners are not leasing land for wind turbines ANYWHERE world wide unless it contains an agreement to remove the junk when they are not viable.

This doesn't even address tons of battery issues, a more complicated car (both electric and gas systems), a car which you need rubber gloves so you don't get shocked to death, added charging systems $$$, battery disposal, a world which does not have endless supplies of materials for solar panels and batteries, and on and on and on.

I can buy a darn fine $5-10k car which I can sit outside and last me for years. An electric car I need to set up a garage, charging station, it becomes a hobby; and that's all fine if that's what you want. Great for those making strides but for how I use a car or a truck it is no where near a replacement. in $ or convenience.

I am not saying you shouldn't; like I said it's neat stuff if that's what your into. Fact is over 90% of country wide electricity for cars comes from coal and is said to create even worse emissions.

If I lived in a small neighborhood and never ventured beyond the neighborhood and never got on the road with semis or large suv's, over the road trucks, I might think of an electric golf cart type of car.

The US uses 20m barrels oil per day. China was 6.5 a couple years ago expected to use over 1/2 of the world supplies in the next 25 years.

We use 50% of our oil for vehicles and 1/2 of that is for cars. So what is a 1% improvement of 25%? Not a solution. Especially when you look at the energy it takes to build this stuff and the fact that much of it comes from China.

There is no doubt we have an oil problem which is only getting worse. To fail to drill oil, oil shale, natural gas, etc in this country is a crime. We have one of the largest pockets of natural gas just off the coast of California. It was fought to drill into this many times by the oil and gas companies. Instead they pored money into green energy companies which failed. NOW---Mexico is tapping into the gas pocket and we are importing the same gas from Mexico. It's enough to make your brain boil!

No question the direction is neat and worth while. We need more time to come up with viable solutions. Not that we won't but I am not ready to jump ship; were not close enough to shore yet!
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  #255 (permalink)  
Old 03-04-2012, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shine
look , i'm sorry but in this part of the world if your having trouble buying fuel you sure as hell cant by a 40k dollar car. in the real world people buy 10 year old cars and drive them til they quit.your greenie way of life is 20 years away.
This is very true, but I sure am happy to see all the people who can afford it buying these cars and putting in those solar panels! I am DAMN Happy seeing it and I commend them.

Brian
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