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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2011, 11:16 PM
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Cobalt327,

You know of what you speak. I should have mentioned that all your available torque is on tap at 0 rpm. Once the motoring public experiences the linear and robust power delivery of an electric motor without the need of multiple gears, they won't go back to ICE. I have both, still enjoy hot rodding with ICE propulsion, i.e., my Track-T stick, and my 556 hp CTS-V stick, but after driving a Tesla, and owning a Smart Car Electric, I know from my own driving, that being a 40 year long gearhead I'll always have an internal combustion engine ride, but if I wasn't a gearhead, and just an average driver, once I owned an electric I would never go back to ICE. That is how the general population is going to respond, I do believe.

I viewed your video, man, slot cars are sure going faster than they did when I was racing them back in the early to mid 60's. Doesn't your neck get sore trying to follow your slot car?

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Last edited by deckofficer; 11-17-2011 at 11:26 PM.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2011, 11:22 PM
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So what we really need is a slot in the road. Use the gas motor to get up to the road then lower the "wicks" and start sucking up the juice. No battery neded at all. If you had a 500# electric motor I'm sure you would be more than happy with the performance.!!! Wire size and controller would be the limiters.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2011, 11:30 PM
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If using AC, why not bury the high voltage transmission lines under the
Interstates, and you could inductively pull the power you need for travel between cities, much like how a transformer works with no electrical connection between the primary and secondary side of the transformer. Of course, billing via transponder sending usage information to the power company.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2011, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryK
If only I had known this yesterday!!
I ordered a new F250 diesel 4 wheel drive.
Day late and a dollar short again!

Guess I will just have to live with myself.
Shoulda sprung for the F350.....
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2011, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Siggy_Freud
My oh my . . . I guess this is why I usually try and stay out of politically charged posts on a car forum.

"I really love BMWs, but I saw some republican driving it the other day so it MUST be a POS."
LMFAO.

I could not figure why you had squelched the Methanol thread, since the information would have helped a lot of guys here that did not know.

Now I got it all figured out, no problem as long as we know the rules and I have you figured out.

Hey, maybe you could talk Jon into changing the forum name to "tree huger rods", "Obama's rods" or "Save the trees are us"

Have a great day.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2011, 06:41 AM
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A save the trees name would not work. Trees, like most plants need carbon dioxide to live, and grow. Electric cars emit very little CO2 in their operation. But an electric car may help the trees where the fuel fired electric generating plant is located.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2011, 06:55 AM
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Now .... let's see. To support those electric cars we need an electric infrastructure. To the best of my knowledge, and that's getting dated now that I am no longer in the business, the United States is old and starting to break down at a prodigious rate, with California leading the way with their outlandish tree hugger laws, so much so that they import (wheel) a significant portion of their needs from states like Nevada and Arizona which are a bit more real life based. This means that electricity will be a very expensive commodity in the not too distant future. Now if everyone (passenger vehicles, at least) were to convert and since a car needs a daily charge if used, that's going to place a burden on generation and transmittal service that cannot be sustained. Yeah, the huggers say build more power plants - well, a nuke takes over 10 years to design, site, license and build. Usually longer. A fossil plant - that can be as long. Hydro - same kind of time. Wind mills and solar farms - think NIMBY.

Then while we are on the subject, consider the costs of manufacture - not just that whizzy car, but building that new or replacement power plant, mining out and processing that raw stock plus eventually the manufacturing process.

Most folks don't have a clue about what goes into a power plant, but they are big - actually huge, with generators from, say 25 mega watt (millions of watts) up to 1000 and a few bigger. Then there is that steam generator - a boiler. You want big - work inside a few. Something has to make heat to make steam - either a fossil fuel or a nuclear reaction. Believe it or not, fossil plants are quite efficient, with nukes needing to be a fair bit larger to produce the same amount of power, but are more efficient as far as fuel use and emissions, that is until you have to dispose of the spent fuel. Now, those wind farms - each of those windmills - the biggest will only produce about 6 MW, with most in the 2-3MW range. Compare that to a gas turbine, my specialty - with a 10 MW unit able to fit in many suburban back yards - and that includes all of the peripherals. That windmill - not very efficient for the landscape it covers. Solar - talk about inefficient/size. I have two solar panels on my travel trailer. Each is approximately 2x4 feet and 3-4 inches thick. Total output is 160 watts. That's on a bright sunny day and about enough to keep the two group 27 deep cycle batteries charged. The $2.5 billion Ivanpah solar farm in Ca. is 3500 acres, and only 392 mega watts - really a dumb way to make power!!! A gas fired fossil plant, same size or even larger will fit on 4-5 acres, cost $75-$100 million.

Then of course, for every 100MW produced, only about 30-35% actually reaches you, the consumer as the rest is lost from the generator terminals to the final destination, you the consumer.

Then - to replace that aging power plant - money, lots of it is needed. That's the rates you pay and/or taxes levied.

Now - tell me - why is an electric car better.

Sorry to pick on California, but they just lead the USA way in economic contradictions

Dave W

PS: ....and Barry, I agree with DBM, an F350 is s-o-o-o- much better (an F450 even better yet ) and not much more money.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2011, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deckofficer
If using AC, why not bury the high voltage transmission lines under the
Interstates, and you could inductively pull the power you need for travel between cities, much like how a transformer works with no electrical connection between the primary and secondary side of the transformer. Of course, billing via transponder sending usage information to the power company.
Pretty cool idea there. I remember seeing something about using maglev and grass "roadways". If only they could get cold fusion (or any cheap, clean energy source) to fly...

My only 'fear' is that the greenies get carried away and they do away w/personal transportation. Me no like the idea of being elbow to
a-hole w/a bunch of strangers w/someone else sitting behind the wheel. Likely I'll be long gone before that will happen, though.

OT- I'm reminded that the current(?) world record ET for the scale ¼ mile (55’) is like .410 or .411 @ about 136 MPH. It was run at 2 different places, Bullitt in Kentucky and Flashbacks in Georgia.

The Gp 7 cobalt magnet "open" motors use an arm with (relatively speaking) few turns of large diameter wire. A "64" arm is 16 turns of 24 gauge wire, for example. This is considered a hot arm, but there are hotter, especially for drag racing.

Because of the amperage these motors pull at part 'throttle', I used an "external resistor" hand controller. I built mine from a Parma Turbo controller by adding a 1Ω or 2Ω external resistor (depending on track, arm windings, etc.) to dissapate the heat generated. The stock resistors would burn out almost immediately if used w/an open (Gp 7) motor.

My controller is considered "old school" (was state of the art back in the early 90's). I don't mind, though- all the more effecient "electronic" controller means at part throttle is you have to back off a tick more on the trigger finger (most will remember the old Cox "thumb-type" controllers, below). At WOT all the power is passed through large gauge mega-multi strand wire that completely bypasses the resistor. Of course there are other reasons an electronic controller is preferred over a external resistor controller- but w/the cost of an electronic controller running $300-$600/each I'm in no hurry to switch.

My point in this (as I'm sure everyone already knows) is to say that if one were to try to control the power analog-style for an automobile, the size/weight would surely be prohibitive. Not to mention unnessarily inefficient compared to other control schemes. But to be able to matt the 'gas' on an electric motored car after tweaking the motor, voltage, etc. and modifying the "soft start" feature they'll likely use, will be an eye opener for sure!


Cox Controller, Candies Silicone Tires (circa mid-'60's) Left; External Resistor Controller, Middle; Stock Parma 2.5" Long Resistor, Right

No worries- no more slot stuff, I promise!

Last edited by cobalt327; 11-18-2011 at 07:13 AM.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2011, 07:11 AM
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Just saw this on Yahoo.
http://news.yahoo.com/forget-electri...212057059.html

And back to where does the electricity come from? There is an interstate DC power line from California to Oregon, that can send most of the output of the Dalles Dam, on the Columbia river south.

But even in the Pacific Northwest, with ample generation from hydroelectric dams, most of the time we do burn coal, and natural gas to make electricity.

Solar only works when the sun shines. Wind only when the wind blows. Electricity has to be generated at the time of use, it cannot be stored in any large scale, for the most part. They do "store" electricity at Grand Coulée Dam, by using excess generating capacity at night to pump water back up on the plateau above Lake Roosevelt, but that only yields about 60% of the electricity used to pump the water up on the hill in the first place.

Also keep in mind, there are more and more restrictions being put on Hydroelectric dam operation, because of endangered species regulations.

Last edited by DanielC; 11-18-2011 at 07:23 AM.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2011, 07:20 AM
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But the alternatives are getting their federal day in the sun with the four-year, $24.5 million Project ACCESS (Advanced Combustion Concepts — Enabling Systems and Solutions), with funding that includes a grant of up to $12 million from the DOE.
Put a billion in place of the million above and you might see something happen.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2011, 07:50 AM
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Dave W

PS: ....and Barry, I agree with DBM, an F350 is s-o-o-o- much better (an F450 even better yet ) and not much more money.[/QUOTE]

Well actually, I went to an F250 because I wanted the diesel for gas mileage, new power stroke gets around 20 mpg, the other issue was finding one with the Navigation and rear back-up camera, seems about one out of every 30 has this set up.

I need the camera, so I don't back over a smart car, I don't mind backing over one as I'm well insured but what scared me, is not knowing I ran over one and then being arrested for hit and run.

The only hauling this truck will do is the kids or employees using the truck, so figured a 250 was overkill and wife says I'm tighter then fish ***** anyways.

Last edited by poncho62; 11-19-2011 at 05:14 AM. Reason: Other.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2011, 09:09 AM
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My 99 Dodge 3500 dually gets 19+ all the time except on winter fuel. Plus no payments for over 5 years. $4.29/gal yesterday....ouch

Yep should have got the 3500 dually.....even if it's a Ford. haha
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2011, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryK
Dave W



I need the camera, so I don't back over a smart car, I don't mind backing over one as I'm well insured but what scared me, is not knowing I ran over one and then being arrested for hit and run.

The only hauling this truck will do is the kids or employees using the truck, so figured a 250 was overkill and wife says I'm tighter then fish ***** anyways.
My daily driver - an F350/V10 gasser, maintaining my biggggg carbon footprint.



A story about F350's - and this is my 3rd one. I was backing into a parking space with my '79 long bed super cab. A young lady was trying for the same spot but coming in behind me. My painted bumper - had one minor scratch. Her itty bitty Honda Civic - front end total and needed a wrecker. I never knew that car was there until I heard glass breaking. My truck ended up about a foot from her windshield. Amazing how much damage a big bumper and a Class 4 trailer hitch can do!!
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Last edited by poncho62; 11-19-2011 at 05:14 AM. Reason: Other.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2011, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deckofficer
Russ,

I'm not capable of convincing you on anything. You do live in the part of the country where the majority of electricity is produced by renewable solar (hydro is solar energy) power so you shouldn't have any guilt feelings going electric. With a currently produced battery lasting 900,000 miles, don't you think that is long enough? Both you and Gerry have this thing about proper disposal of the spent batteries. I doubt that will be the responsibility of the end user, more like a dealer requirement. You and Gerry seem to think the rest of us can't recycle, like in cans, plastic, paper, batteries? Don't know about you, but most of us do recycle.
OOoooo Bob,

I just love it when you talk trash.
Show me a currently produced battery system that actually lasts 900000 miles and I'll eat it, then sh1? out recycled batteries for your smart.
I recon' the reason you fine folks down in Californica have been trying to force your had to steal Oregons Hydro power for so long is so you can recharge your electric cars that are "saving the planet" eh?? silence a few million tree huggers and build your own power plants.

Recycle? you seem to have forgotten who started the bottle bill and other programs. it sure wasn't California.

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for having a variety of power sources to fuel the planets needs, but those who think electricity is "free clean power" haven't really thought it out past there noses IMHO.




Russ
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2011, 10:59 AM
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Russ,

Didn't mean to talk trash, because you admit to loving it so much I certainly don't want to get you excited to the point you are saluting the forum. My math was off on the miles you can get out of the new Tesla Model S batteries, as the batteries if cycled down to 50% DOD will give 3000 cycles before losing 20% of capacity. So that is only 450,000 miles. Guess you won't have to eat those batteries.

Why do you think President Obama is pushing the "Smart Grid" so hard? Because the current grid is in fact dumb as dirt. When you have to size your infrastructure to meet peak demands, that is a huge waste during the other 23 hours of a day. If you look at our electrical consumption over a 24 hour cycle, it looks like a sine wave. Here is what is planned here in the States and most other countries.....

You charge your car off peak, and you sell some of your batteries stored energy at peak times. Lets say you live off the grid and you figure the largest single time frame of energy usage is 6:00 PM and you use 25 kw. At 3:00 AM you use 0.5 kw, needless to say if you have an electric car, this is the time you would be charging. Now lets assume you don't want to spend the coin for a 25 kw generator and instead buy a 15 kw generator. Well now at 6:00 PM you would find yourself short of power except you still have 15 kw/hr in your car's batteries, so you just use some of that to get you through your own peak usage time frame. This concept scales up easy for the grid and all of its users. The grid is built to handle peak loads, and off peak is over sized. Stored energy can assist during peak and be replaced during off peak. That is why the 2nd generation chargers/controllers for electric vehicles includes two way grid to user interface. So, this isn't my bright idea, it just simply is how it is going to be done. The power companies will constantly vary the price per kilowatt/hour, and you the end user will program with your computer at what price breaks you want the dishwasher to kick on, the batteries in your car to charge, etc. During peak times you will also program at what rate you are willing to sell your stored energy in the car back to the power company. This is a win-win situation, whereas the power companies are getting a larger return on investment and you the end user are paying less for your electrical energy needs. All this due to the Smart Grid and the elimination of all the peaks and valleys of our current energy consumption scenario. Sit back and enjoy the show, because this is how it is going to pan out.
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