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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 03-13-2008, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgcantrellsr
Yes, you got damage inside that thing that needs to be addressed.

How you going to install cam bearings without tearing engine down? I gotta hear this!
well I did strip down the motor just to short block, and I've already put the heads back on, but now I'm going to pull the back cam plug when I do my cam bearings.


and I looked and it is almost all of them that are chewed but on all of them it was on the passenger side of the bearing only, not the top or the bottum, does this pattern mean anything? is that just where they happened to ware?
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 03-13-2008, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNC BLOCKS N/E
Make sure when you buy new cam bearings you don't go with stock replacement as you need the performance cam bearings if your using stronger springs and a bigger cam,
If he's going with a hydraulic cam less than .525" valve lift and springs with less than 130 lbs seated and 300 lbs open there is no real need for HP cam bearings.

tom
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Old 03-13-2008, 09:09 PM
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Machine Shop Tom
aren't the HP cam bearings stronger, and last longer with a better quality product, or are the benefits not even worth it ?
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 03-15-2008, 07:32 AM
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Here's my take on the situation for what its worth.

In one of the first posts it's mentioned that the damage is not rotational but inline with the bore. If there was a lot of debris that went through the engine then you would see a lot of rotational scoring. I would personally pull off some rod caps to check the rod bearings for damage. (mark them so you don't mix them) From there you can make a better assessment of the amount of debris that went through the engine.

Depending on how badly a cam flattened I've seen very little damage all the way up to severe damage that requires a total rebuild and a VERY thorough cleaning out of every pore of the block and heads. The only person who has the parts in front of him is the original poster. Personally I would like to see pictures.

The oil filter can do a pretty good job of pulling out particles but if a bearing is tearing itself up then a domino effect takes place where one bearing chews up the next bearing in line then the next bearing in line and so on down the line. All leaving debris in the oil galleys and just replacing the chewed up parts won't fix what remains inside the galleys. So as soon as you start up again the chewing up process begins all over and it doesn't matter what cam bearing you put in.

Now as far as what type of cam bearing to put in I go by the application. By application there are many things you need to consider.
If you find severe damage then don't waste your money, just rebuild the whole things. If you don't find severe damage to the rod/main bearings and seeing as this is not a race car that will see sustained high RPM's or have a big roller cam. If the debris was limited to very small particles I would go with stock cam bearings. Plus with the possibility of small amounts of debris in the oil you're going to want something with more embedding properties. The softer stock bearing will give that to you.

If you're going to need a total rebuild and plan on racing a lot or plan on some day putting in a roller cam that needs high spring pressures then spend the extra and go with the ACL's or better yet go coated.

On a side note I too have built many 2 bbl circle track engines here in New England and I would say more than 1/2 of them have stock cam bearings in them and I've yet to have one fail. In fact one of my customers won his track championship a couple years back at Star Speedway with a motor that had been through 3 seasons on the same shortblock with only re-ringing and after the season when I got it back upon inspection the cam bearings still showed no discernible wear and this engine had stock cam bearings. I have customers who have budgets all over the map, some have $3000 budgets, and some have $30,000 budgets. Guess which ones get which bearings? In the end both are happy.
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Old 03-15-2008, 09:55 AM
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For What it's worth

I built me a little 377 roller cam motor for my dragster, ran it 3 years, shifted it at 8200, went 5.40's in 1/8 and lo and behold I used them old cheap 12.95 cam bearings!
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 03-15-2008, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by engineczar
Here's my take on the situation for what its worth.

In one of the first posts it's mentioned that the damage is not rotational but inline with the bore. If there was a lot of debris that went through the engine then you would see a lot of rotational scoring. I would personally pull off some rod caps to check the rod bearings for damage. (mark them so you don't mix them) From there you can make a better assessment of the amount of debris that went through the engine.

Depending on how badly a cam flattened I've seen very little damage all the way up to severe damage that requires a total rebuild and a VERY thorough cleaning out of every pore of the block and heads. The only person who has the parts in front of him is the original poster. Personally I would like to see pictures.

The oil filter can do a pretty good job of pulling out particles but if a bearing is tearing itself up then a domino effect takes place where one bearing chews up the next bearing in line then the next bearing in line and so on down the line. All leaving debris in the oil galleys and just replacing the chewed up parts won't fix what remains inside the galleys. So as soon as you start up again the chewing up process begins all over and it doesn't matter what cam bearing you put in.

Now as far as what type of cam bearing to put in I go by the application. By application there are many things you need to consider.
If you find severe damage then don't waste your money, just rebuild the whole things. If you don't find severe damage to the rod/main bearings and seeing as this is not a race car that will see sustained high RPM's or have a big roller cam. If the debris was limited to very small particles I would go with stock cam bearings. Plus with the possibility of small amounts of debris in the oil you're going to want something with more embedding properties. The softer stock bearing will give that to you.

If you're going to need a total rebuild and plan on racing a lot or plan on some day putting in a roller cam that needs high spring pressures then spend the extra and go with the ACL's or better yet go coated.

On a side note I too have built many 2 bbl circle track engines here in New England and I would say more than 1/2 of them have stock cam bearings in them and I've yet to have one fail. In fact one of my customers won his track championship a couple years back at Star Speedway with a motor that had been through 3 seasons on the same shortblock with only re-ringing and after the season when I got it back upon inspection the cam bearings still showed no discernible wear and this engine had stock cam bearings. I have customers who have budgets all over the map, some have $3000 budgets, and some have $30,000 budgets. Guess which ones get which bearings? In the end both are happy.
So far we have never built any $3000 budget engines and the ones we do if we asked our customers if they could afford another 7 dollars on good set of cam bearing I really don't think there would be any question which ones they would want.

The last engine that came from another shop that had SH-290 Clevite cam bearings one of the center cam bearings was pitted or was flaked apart at the thrust or load area of the bearings and this engine had a 525 lift hyd. cam and was a circle track engine can't remember the spring pressures.

I have seen this more then once!!

$3000 dollar engines they must be cast cranks and stock type rod engines with cast or hyper pistons as we have prepared blocks and rotators for some of the classes that use stock engines and those guys could probably get away with stock bearings.

Its been alot of years since we put a cast crank in a performance engine or stock pistons and rods.

HMMMMMM I wonder why they ever made the performance cam bearings???

We have worked on some 42,000.00 engines and the blower engines that we build are over 60,000.00 but they do get the job done.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 03-15-2008, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NAIRB
I'll clear these matters up right now.

Nobody, but nobody builds better engines than me.

For it is written,

Yea, even so, it was given to Nairb, the knowledge from birth, and yea let this be a sign that whosever disagree shall die the death of many small dogs as they are eaten by bigger dogs.

Thy cam and thy shaft, they comfort thee and I shall dwell upon the holy dyno forever and ever, amen.

As it is written,

So shall it be done.



I hope that clears things up as to who the authority is around here.
I have always told guys who think I do good work that there is always some better and I have just met one.

Good post I like that
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 03-15-2008, 01:42 PM
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I will agree that good bearings don't cost much more than crappy ones.

I've got a box full of "Clemex" bearings, and I'm afraid to use them in anything.

Has anyone ever used "Clemex" cam bearings?

Is it Clevite-Mexico? WTH

What's next, ChinaCleve?

I've used durabond in streeters and they work fine.

Years ago, we used to groove the cam bearings on anything with a roller cam, and that seemed to keep them in good shape.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 03-15-2008, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNC BLOCKS N/E
Its been alot of years since we put a cast crank in a performance engine or stock pistons and rods.
I build a lot of Stock Eliminator drag motors. Stock pistons no, cast cranks and stock rods yup. No choice, the rules are the rules. If it came with a cast crank then you gotta run it.

Trust me Carl a guy with a $3000 budget isn't running a tour Mod. That would be the mini-stock crowd. Then again I've done a few mini-stocks that were in the $10k range.


Also Carl don't think you're the only shop that gets to fix other peoples work. Some of my best customers are customers that got screwed by the local big names. One of the things I provide that they couldn't, a conscience.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 03-16-2008, 09:28 AM
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I guess an answer to the OP is in order here, also.

You want find the reason as to why you cam bearings look the way they do. Normally, the chipping you describe is de-lamination caused by high mileage. Perhaps the cam bearings are the originals? Or the engine has seen some hard use. Installation problem usually show up as bearing material smearing on the cam. Anyway if you don't fix the root cause, you will have more trouble, and not just with the cam bearings. You will want to disassemble the bottom end to see what the extent of the damage is and how you want to fix it.

tom
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 03-16-2008, 09:33 AM
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Seeing this also makes me ask one that I got asked last night. What really happens to cam bearings when they get hot tanked while in the block? Pretty much the same as like Tom stated (looking like they de-laminate), or does the metal just "go soft"? I wasn't about to answer my buddy without some sort of feedback, aside from "I dunno..."


In a while, Chet.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 03-16-2008, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schnitz
Seeing this also makes me ask one that I got asked last night. What really happens to cam bearings when they get hot tanked while in the block? Pretty much the same as like Tom stated (looking like they de-laminate), or does the metal just "go soft"? I wasn't about to answer my buddy without some sort of feedback, aside from "I dunno..."


In a while, Chet.
They essentially melt or etch away to the steel backing. Does a good job of contaminating the hot tank, too.

tom
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Old 03-16-2008, 04:55 PM
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hey thanks guys for all the great info, heres some more info
ok so I just pulled the oil pump, and the crank to rod cap #7 and it looks pretty clean, the crank looks flawless and on the bearing its only foggy except along the outer edges, its shiny there.
what'ya think? I'm going back to pull a couple more of them to check them out, unless someone says its not necessary
I'm also going to look for the camera to take pictures of it and the cam for ya, and the front cam bearing (I havent pulled them yet)
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Old 03-16-2008, 05:31 PM
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ok heres some pictures, but it's kinda hard to see
I couldn't get a good picture of the cam bearings, so later
and the cam doesn't look that flat... but I don't know how flat it needs to be to be called "flat"
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Old 03-16-2008, 05:38 PM
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oops... there we go
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