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Old 07-02-2005, 09:49 AM
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China is overtaking the United States

1. look at the economy
2. military buildup
3. control of shipyards in the US
4. the purchasing of American companies

***
I feel that we are the new roman empire. Once we are weakened, they will likely use military force against us, especially if Bush defends taiwan against a chinese invasion.
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Old 07-02-2005, 09:54 AM
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I remember seeing recently that a Chinese firm had bought a defunct steel mill in Minnesota and re-opened it up because it needs the steel. Kinda ironic that the Chinese are using American workers to supply it's industry.

tom
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Old 07-02-2005, 09:56 AM
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im not a fan of war. we are not weak. we have never been stronger???????

the US military is the most powerful military in history. the romans got nothin on us, not by any skinny. bussiness may sell out. i dont think the military will.

paranoid?

Last edited by spinn; 07-02-2005 at 10:39 AM.
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Old 07-02-2005, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spinn
...the US military is the most powerful military in history.
Spinn,

You are correct, assuming you measure power in terms of conventional warfare. The problem is that the face of war is changing, and changing rather dramatically. In fact, two major segments of our military force (Navy and Air Force) are currently sitting on their hands in the Iraq War primarily because the enemy isn't fighting in a traditional or conventional manner. The enemy has basically neutralized the majority of our great fire power. I think the jury is still out as to the ability of the Army to fight an unconventional war, but so far the tide seems to be going in the wrong direction. So yes, our military may be the most powerful in history, but the question must now be raised...is it the SMARTEST in history. Or better put...are our nation's TACTICS the most effective in light of today's method of terrorist warfare.

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Old 07-02-2005, 11:43 AM
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It seems that China nas planned this out very carefuly. Slowely taking over key companies and industries. It seems that pretty soon if China does decide to attack taiwan, the US would have to much to lose if they did try and defend them. China just bought a big part of IBM GIving them a big foothold on the technology field. If they do end up buying this oil company they will have controle over key Oil reserves and pipelines. If the US goes up against them CHina could shut these industries of in the blink of an eye. I read something the other day that said China is producing scientists and engineers in the oil field ata rate of 4 to 1 compared to the US.
I work as an electrical apprentice and recently Prices in copper wire and other metal products have been on the rise. This is bacause China is producing the equivalent of a major city every day. Their buying up so much copper for wire it is effecting prices all over the world. Last year we almost had a shortage because of it. One of our holsalers got word that they wouldn't be able to order anymore copper wire from their main distributor. Luckily that was all sorted out tho. Kinda scary.
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Old 07-02-2005, 12:26 PM
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More than half of the world's population is in Asia, and the vast majority of that is in china. China is an emerging economy, its nothing to pee your pants about. They're stronger militarily than they used to be, and they do own some rather significant portions of American companies. So what? They're not going to attack the united states just for the sake of attacking us because they're getting stronger. Stop watching so many movies and buying so deeply into the culture of fear. NATO would never allow that anyway.

If we play our cards right and get in on their economic successes, America can have a large benefit in this growth too. Just because we're used to being the only economic and military superpower in the world, doesn't mean that we should expect things to stay like that forever. Anything that can make Americans think less linearly and more globally, in my book, is a blessing.

K
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Old 07-02-2005, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killerformula
NATO would never allow that anyway.
K
NATO? what NATO? Look att everything the UN does. And that is... nothing.
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Old 07-02-2005, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killerformula
More than half of the world's population is in Asia, and the vast majority of that is in china. China is an emerging economy, its nothing to pee your pants about. They're stronger militarily than they used to be, and they do own some rather significant portions of American companies. So what? They're not going to attack the united states just for the sake of attacking us because they're getting stronger. Stop watching so many movies and buying so deeply into the culture of fear.

K
These same things were said about Japan in the 60s and 70s. Like Killer says, stop watching so many movies....
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Old 07-02-2005, 10:15 PM
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If Anything Happens

Quote:
Originally Posted by spinn
im not a fan of war. we are not weak. we have never been stronger???????

the US military is the most powerful military in history. the romans got nothin on us, not by any skinny. bussiness may sell out. i dont think the military will.

paranoid?
If anything the American people will sell out the military..Done seen that in Vietnam..

OMT
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Old 07-04-2005, 06:34 AM
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Killer, your are spot on. The trick will be to get our politicians to buy into it. They are stuck in the past and will drag us down with that kind of thinking. Back in the 16th and 17th centuries, Great Britain was the most powerful nation in the world. They did it with technology. Later they were eclipsed by one of their colonies, where innovation and open mindedness were allowed to flourish without much restraint. G.B. was handcuffed by their political system and politicians who would not see the future and change their approach to world order. The result is the England we see today. Large bark but very little bite. If our politicos keep going the way they have been, legislating our industries out of the country, and don't take advantage of the changing world economies and power shifts, the US will be relegated to a lesser power as England was and is today. We won't have the money to continue our role as Super Power. Again, though not a completely even comparison, the old USSR couldn't keep up economically with the US and so finally went broke trying to keep their military power up to parity. the same will happen to the US as China becomes more powerful economically unless we change our approach to dealing with them. We need to partner with them, not compete against them.
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Old 07-05-2005, 07:55 AM
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Quite a few good points to touch on.

We can NOT fight terrorists in a P/C way. We need to fight on THEIR terms to win. We can indeed fight them, as we are trained in that manner. Replica cities are built at 2 nearby bases, so they can practice door to door combat. But to use our supremecy, we need to inflict the same type of casualties as they do. The same gruesome mannerisms. Its just that the World would not stand for it. I doubt Americans would stand for it. Until then, we can only "fight the good fight", and do what we can.

China: Wow. They are growing at an astounding rate. I would suspect that they will encounter a growing resistance within China's population to rid communism. More jobs for the general Chinese population will make them feel less dependant on the employer (State). They will soon want to be remunerated much like the capitalist countries. Look at Japan. Their effeciency rating has dropped dramatically as a result of their growth. Now they face a shakey ecomony, such as ours. Yen tumbles and rises from time to time. In the 70's & 80's the Yen was extremely strong against a weak dollar. Japanese were buying American companies left and right. They will also face increasing scrutiny of the likes of Greenpeace and other environmental types. As well as human rights types. China may surge, but they will get caught up in the same mire as USA did, and Japan did. Bank on it.

In my opinion, at least for the short term, we need to downsize our government, make more citizens productive and spend less money frivolously.

We have too many programs to help those, who don't contribute. The widespread fraud is a major culprit.

We need to BUILD families, instead of dividing them with social programs.
Case in point. Girl A, at 17 gets pregnant. Boy A nowhere to be found. Girl A should be the responsibility of her PARENTS, instead of going on Welfare. With Welfare, she is out on her own. Independant of her family. It not up to society to pay for her indescretions. Girl A and Boy A only. Or their parents. Not us. Now we pay $35,000 a year for their fling. Stipend, food stamps, housing , medicaid, school lunch, school breakfast, daycare while she looks for work, tuition aid, it continues for a lifetime.

We need to better retrain our workers who go out on disability. We can't do this until the doctors are not afraid of being sued for malpractice, when they send someone back to work. We need TORT reform to stop this.

We need to reduce legal costs for the government. Frivolous lawsuits, such as McDonalds (in my opinion) or look at OJ, or Michael Jackson. Those court costs must be staggering for the taxpayers!

Perhaps its time to be less of a "feel good" country, and face reality. We need to cut costs where we can, and back off the "give-me".

Business needs to be fostered, but slightly regulated in regards to perks and bonuses. The bonus should be incrementally tied to the rest of the company. Meaning,if the CEO gets a 10% bonus, the general employees should get something comensurate. There is no clear answer to this issue, in my mind as of yet. We still need to reward excellence, yet something equitable for employees.
I think the problem lies in the "Board of Directors". They decide the company equity policies. And they cross company lines. Joe Schmoe may be the CEO of ABC company, but may sit on 4 other Board of Directors. He may vote a raise for John Doe, who sits on HIS (ABC) Board of Directors. Thats where the golden parachutes and the outrageous awards are made. That needs to be held in check.

We need to ENCOURAGE business growth, though. Its only through expansion, that the general populace will see jobs. And that will float our economy.
We need to somehow TRANSFER the business taxes from the companies itself to the individual shareholders. Actually tax the share as income. This should be done ANUALLY , not on the date of sale of the share. Just like cash. When the company sees a profit, the profit would be reflected in the share price. This way, the money is not rolled over from year to year. Since the company is owned by the shareholders, they should pay the incremental tax based on the companies earnings annually. So if John Doe, who is CEO received 300,000 shares as a bonus, he just received 300,000 additional portions of taxable income. See, the systems are somewhat in place, but there is the opportunity for the share to go untaxed for many years. Even surviving the stock owner. Our current way of looking at corporate shares will need to change. Maybe it will add a stablizing factor, and not let Dot..Coms
run rampant.
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Old 07-05-2005, 09:57 AM
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China today is like America in the 50's. They are experienceing a boom, and while they are communist, they have not closed there doors to other countries like russia did. Chinese are experiencing a freedom, that they have never had. they have good jobs and lots of pay, they want what we do. houses, clothes, cars and big macs. Think about how much Cement and Steel we used in the 50-60's building our interstates and dams. It is no different, except that there are WAY more chinese. I agree with been away. The US had social uprisings in the 60's with both antiwar and black civil rights, they are bound for the same destiny when it comes to communisim... eventually they will want freedom from communism...
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Old 07-05-2005, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beenaway2long
Quite a few good points to touch on.
We need to somehow TRANSFER the business taxes from the companies itself to the individual shareholders. Actually tax the share as income. This should be done ANUALLY , not on the date of sale of the share. Just like cash. When the company sees a profit, the profit would be reflected in the share price. This way, the money is not rolled over from year to year. Since the company is owned by the shareholders, they should pay the incremental tax based on the companies earnings annually. So if John Doe, who is CEO received 300,000 shares as a bonus, he just received 300,000 additional portions of taxable income. See, the systems are somewhat in place, but there is the opportunity for the share to go untaxed for many years. Even surviving the stock owner. Our current way of looking at corporate shares will need to change. Maybe it will add a stablizing factor, and not let Dot..Coms
run rampant.
So let me get this straight, you think takings the investors is going to help the economy? Its not going to do anything but scare people away from buying stocks that make money. Or everyone is going to be trying to sell their stocks right before the dividens are up causing a market crash. As for the rich CEOs voting raises for each other. That is what america is about, I suppose you are a supporter of anti trust laws. There is nothing wrong with manopolies, one company with control of everything could cause a whole industry to grow faster than a few small companies competing to be the best value for the consumer.
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Old 07-05-2005, 05:31 PM
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Chevythunder, monopolies are not good for industry, the consumers or the economy in general. They lead to huge inefficiencies, high costs to the consumers and disproportionate profits to the owners. Actually, competition is what drives innovation and more bang for the buck. Each company wants to offer something more to the consumer so they will buy their product and generate more profits by selling in higher volume. State run monopolies are part of what brought the USSR to its knees. China recognized this and is allowing competition and capitalism to begin to flower.

Beenaway, tax the shares as income each year? Would you tax home owners every year on their houses as income at full value each year? It's the same thing. A stock is just an asset. Dividends are taxed as income as they should be because that is income earned from the asset. When shares are given to company executives as compensation, they do have to pay taxes on the value of the dividends as income. That is why when they receive stocks, many times some of the shares will be sold so the tax can be paid. They then keep the remainder as part of their portfolio. If we were to do as you suggest, our system of capitalism would wither and die. Good points on most of the rest of your argument, though.
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Old 07-06-2005, 12:59 AM
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Perhaps its time to be less of a "feel good" country, and face reality. We need to cut costs where we can, and back off the "give-me".
Social reform, responsibility, what a concept....if a politician starts talking this, people shudder. If a presidential candidate based a platform on this concept, voter registration forms would be in every welfare office in this country. I vote for Jeff for president, I'd damn sure vote for him. Body armor woulld be needed though, Jeff. It gets me whenever anyone speaks of these issues, the first cry is "Think of the children, they will suffer". BS! Ahhh Jeez, now I'm p.o.ed and it's time to hit the sack. Jeff, I agree with everything you said except the stock stuff, I don't know diddly about those things and couldn't give an opinion. Dan
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