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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2010, 08:25 AM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymez
Here's what I have learned....

According to Google searches and posts on Mustang Forums and Jeep Forums, it's not uncommon for clears made by Trinity 1945 AKA www.paintforcars.com to peel off in sheets. Most people reporting the problem have seen the peeling take place 6 to 12 months after their vehicles were sprayed.

Given the overall "bad juju" that silicone can cause when it comes to automotive painting, adding the the Fish Eye Eliminator (FEE) to the base coat may have accelerated the peeling process.

None of the other people who have reported the peeling problems with Trinity products have gone into detail on the prep work steps that they took. Nobody else mentions the use of FEE or AP in their bases (this may be uniquely stupid to me).

At this point, I am lead to believe that the clear coat would have peeled off in sheets even if the prep work and application were done perfect.

As for the cloudy clear coat, I feel something was left out in my explanations above. Most of the truck had been wet sanded prior to the buffing that took place a few days a go when everything lifted. I don't know if that will change your opinion on what happened or not.

Regardless of what may have caused this horrible paint reaction, I hope others can and will learn from this thread and my mistakes.


As far as flash times are concerned, the way I was taught, and I realize this may have changed in the last 10 years, was to allow 20 minutes between coats. However, when spraying an entire vehicle, you can effectively go nonstop because it takes on average 20 minutes to circle the whole thing. We actually stopped and took considerable breaks between coats.


You are a little hard headed on this one, you want to OPEN UP that head and read what has been told to you here.

"Could" it be that the clear is not the best in the world and it "could" be susceptible to peeling? Yeah, that is possible.

HOWEVER, and this is a BIG, a HUGE HOWEVER, you played junior chemist and created a mess!

FOLLOW THE TECH SHEETS!!!! Does it say anywhere in the clear tech sheet to add adhesion promotor? Does it say anywhere in the paint tech sheets to add fisheye eliminator? The answer is a gynormous NO!

Let me make this clear, I have not had fish eye eliminator in the my shop in about 25 years! YEARS ago I was taught what it was and how to avoid fish eyes and it was simply NOT ALLOWED in that shop. I haven't bought any since!

The clear is so rough, one of the MANY, MANY problems here may be that the clear couln't have "stuck" to the paint being it wasn't wet enough. The base being piled on and full of solvent and then the clear "laying" ON TOP of the paint because it is sprayed so dry. This of course is all a moot point being the paint was full of silicone!

But honestly, you REALLY need to open up to the suggestions given here and for goodness sakes, FOLLOW THE TECH SHEETS!!!!!

I know this post isn't very helpful as far as a "how to fix" this problem in detail. There is WAY too much to cover and way too much that still needs to be found out about what you actually did! Being you didn't follow the tech sheets on what you have told us, what else didn't you follow the tech sheets on? Was the base sanded, did you leave the base too long before clearing going past the "window"?

This is not a butt kicking or rude, mean spirited. If it comes off that way, I am sorry. The fact of the matter is you REALLY need to clear your head of every thing you have in there about painting and start from scratch or you will have something else happen the next time.

Brian

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2010, 09:30 AM
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well i have to call bs on this one. no way in hell have you ever painted anything before. you can not add fisheye eliminator to the first coat of anything. if it's in the first it has to be in every coat from there on. your buying cheap paint and screwing with the formulas . leave the painting to those who take time to read the tech sheets and follow them.
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Old 09-09-2010, 11:32 AM
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Shine, some people just HAVE TO mess with stuff thinking they know better. I had a shop that I used to service that would do this stuff all the time! ALL THE TIME! He added retarder AND accelerator in the same paint! He changed mixing ratios, he mixed brands, he did everything you could dream up. And he had CATASTROPHIC failures all the time! Paint that you could wipe off with a rag and thinner. I remember one where bird poop damaged the paint. I met with the customer and went and got a rag with thinner on it and did a test....ONE WIPE took it to the primer! I AM NOT KIDDING, TO THE PRIMER!

I had done a little product test on a junk part in this shop a week or so before and I took the shop owner over to it and told him to try the rub test on it (same exact product a SS urethane). It did't budge one one bit, NOTHING was on the rag. He didn't believe that this could even happen, he didn't think this paint was that good, geee, if you follow the tech sheet is amazing what you can learn!

So even painting every day, some people never learn.

And that is what this is all about Jaymez, step back and take a look at what is being said here. If you have any passion what so ever in this stuff, STOP, step back and start over on your knowledge of this stuff, dump everything you know and start from scratch and for goodness sakes FOLLOW THE TECH SHEET!

Broan
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2010, 11:57 AM
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Resolution....

After playing phone tag with a rep from Trinity 1945 for a day, they emailed me and asked what went wrong. I told them that all the clear came off the truck in sheets. They only had two follow up questions for me.

1) How long did I wait between paint and clear?

2) Did I want a complementary gallon of clear or a refund? I requested a refund and within 20 minutes it had posted to my PayPal account.

They didn't bother with trouble shooting, but, hey, I got some of my money back.


As for claims that neither of us have ever painted before, those are dead wrong. However, I will admit it has been at least 10 years since my last paint job. I forgot a huge portion of what I once knew.

I was never a professional painter. I learned Auto Body in high school and did a lot of painting back then. I made a huge mistake in assuming that everything I remembered was correct. I've spent the last 10 years trying to learn a variety of other trades. I forgot some details from this one. Did you ever forget? It happened to me.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2010, 12:20 PM
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I'm glad the refund, made you happy.

10-12 years ago I went into a shop with a jobber, we walked in and there were the painters, owner and a paint rep with a jobber, looking at two blew-up jobs.
The jobber i was with offered to come back and owner said no wait, so we stood back in corner and listened to the yelling and causing, the factory rep was greener then grass and had no idea what happened as 30 minutes went by, the rep says, I will give you a case of clear to take car of these jobs.

All was happy, rep leaves and the owner of the shop was thrill to death, I said well, the problem was not solved as no one brought up the real cause and any other car done this way will be coming back also, talk about a panic attack, when I explained the two things that could cause it, he could not leave a message for the jobber to come back, fast enough and could not get us out of there fast enough.

Glad your happy.
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Old 09-09-2010, 12:31 PM
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You are right, the cause has not conclusively been found. I'm a little disapointed that the Trinity rep didn't do any troubleshooting beyond asking me about flash times, but, the fact that they offered a refund tells me they knew their product had its problems.

Virtually everybody in this thread and in the treads on other boards, as well as the painters who have seen the truck and the clear in person, has given me a different explanation as to what went wrong.

Even after learning of the backyard chemistry, they still we waited too long between base and clear applications. That simply isn't true as we only took 20 minutes between layers. It's pretty difficult to break down a gun and clean it properly and get it reassembled in less time than that.

I'll make some visual upgrades to the truck over the next few months. Shave the tails, mold in the roll pan, etc. Strip the base off, seal it, and send it to a body shop for repainting next year.
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Old 09-09-2010, 12:41 PM
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pay close attention............ you CAN NOT spray clear over fe . period . it was not the paints fault . you created this problem all by yourself by adding fe to the base . throw that useless crap in the trash where it belongs .
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2010, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shine
pay close attention............ you CAN NOT spray clear over fe . period . it was not the paints fault . you created this problem all by yourself by adding fe to the base . throw that useless crap in the trash where it belongs .
Shine, Yer just blowin in the wind again.
All they gotta do is get all the B/C with the FE in it off, and reshoot the damn thing the right way.
But, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO that ain't gonna listen.
They got and easier way.
I guess You, BarryK and myself don't know nuttin.
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Old 09-09-2010, 04:11 PM
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OK, ***'s the problem?

I have acknowledged my screw ups. I have pointed out that every single expert I have talked to has told me something completely different when they try to explain what went wrong.

Some have blamed the FEE. Some have credited the AP to the clear coming off in sheets instead of flakes, but, have not blamed that for the adhesion problems. NOBODY that I have personally spoken to at any of the body shops that I've visited have seen this happen before.

I contacted the supplier, rather than question me about my methods, they offered an instant refund. To me, that means they acknowledge a potential flaw in their product. They made no attempts to defend their products.

IF I paint the truck again, I will seal the whole damn thing before applying any paint.
IF I paint the truck again, I will not use AP or FEE at all.
IF I paint the truck again, I will not buy bargain basement paints or clear coats.

You are acting as though I am claiming to be a professional painter. I never made that claim. Yes, I have painted before. Yes, I have won awards for my paint. I had not picked up a spray gun in 10 years.

I still question blaming the FEE because I have used it before without a problem. I question blaming the AP because I have used that before without a problem. I acknowledge that paint technologies have advanced since I last sprayed a vehicle.

I blame backyard chemistry and using too much of the additives. I also blame low quality paint and clear products. If you disagree with my assessment after my own investigations and discussions, so be it. I won't bother asking any more questions.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2010, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
IF I paint the truck again, I will seal the whole damn thing before applying any paint.
IF I paint the truck again, I will not use AP or FEE at all.
IF I paint the truck again, I will not buy bargain basement paints or clear coats.
Now your on the right track. You forgot the most important one, I will get the product data sheets for whatever I use, and read, understand and follow them before attempting to use. Start playing chemist and going against the manufactures recommendations, and there is always a chance it will end up biteing you. Throw that fee in the trash, and do a thorough job of prep, and no reason you should need that adhesion promotor either.

Chances of success are better with a good line, but lower cost lines can work just fine if you use them correctly. Many of the cheaper bases are enamel based, and besides being slower many don't have great coverage, so those added coats for coverage, very important to allow plenty of flash time. Now imagine spraying a dark color in an enamel based basecoat, lots of coats for coverage, and there is a high humidity level. You better leave a lot of flash time or your asking for trouble. Its not even a bad idea to allow the base to sit overnight and clear in the morning if you have the time. The bases I've used your still well within your window.
That said, I don't personally know any regular painter using trinity products, but I don't think you can really put the blame on the product with what has been admitted.
Don't rush, better to allow extra flash time when you have the time, just stay within product open windows. Using a high grade reducer is money well spent, and you must never use a lower grade reducer in a higher line base (ie omni reducer in deltron dbc). Not saying you did, but also would try to avoid ever using a fast reducer. Better to be on the slow side for conditions and allow added flash time then too fast.

We've all made our share of mistakes and will continue to, and anything to do with paint, its a pretty expensive learning experience. Admitting we did something wrong and learning from it though is how you advance. One reason even some painters will stick with one brand, because they used them enough to know them well and are most comfortable with. Even then you have to keep up on proper use, because its not uncommon for them to change something.

Time to start over, clean the living heck out of her, and try again going in with a little more knowledge on how to properly use the products this time before pulling the trigger.

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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2010, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymez
You are right, the cause has not conclusively been found. I'm a little disapointed that the Trinity rep didn't do any troubleshooting beyond asking me about flash times, but, the fact that they offered a refund tells me they knew their product had its problems.

Virtually everybody in this thread and in the treads on other boards, as well as the painters who have seen the truck and the clear in person, has given me a different explanation as to what went wrong.
Giving you the clear doesn't mean CRAP about if the product had problems!

1. He gave it to you to get rid of you!
2. He gave it to you because that was the easiest way out!
3. He gave it to you because he DIDN'T know what went wrong!
4. He gave it to you because there was no teaching you how to actually fix the problem because you can't get it out of your head that it WAS the clear!

It was one or more of these reasons but it DID NOT mean that there was something wrong with the clear. BELIEVE ME, as a rep I gave away a lot of product as EVERY SINGLE rep does, and he does it for one or more of the above reasons.

I personally WANTED to find out what went wrong and TEACH the customer something so it didn't happen again. But some people, you just can't teach. I remember one who I was explaining what went wrong and he just couldn't grasp it. He said "What the hell are you saying"? I said "You F&%Ked up!" He said, "Ok, that I can understand".

But EVEN when I showed the painter how he created the problem I STILL gave them product. It is simple customer service to help the guy out.

So him giving you that clear means NOTHING as far as if the clear is good or bad. It is just "the thing to do" as with many other industries.

MANY painters can't accept that they did something wrong, even when you spell it out. Many can, they WANT to learn how to avoid that problem, I mean, do YOU want to have a complete paint job peel off agian? I wouldn't think so!

I always like to ask the question, do you think EVERY CAR ever painted with this product peeled off like that? No, if it did they would be out of business in a hurry. Nope, only SOME of them, why? Why only SOME of them? All the clear came from the same place! SOME of them failed because SOME of them were applied different.


You are getting a bunch of different responses because you are asking a thousand people! Of course you are getting all kinds of responses!

Ok, here, you are getting the SAME response from a bunch of profestional painters, one who used to be a rep as well AND a guy who owns a company who makes and sells clears! I am thinking you have a pretty darn good bunch to get info from here, and they ALL are telling you the same thing!

FOLLOW THE TECH SHEETS!!!!!!!!

Brian
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2010, 08:03 PM
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I've used that Trinity 45 paint before,that stuff is like some old moonshiner went legit and made paint instead of moonshine....

A freind had an old 88 ranger he wanted painted one summer,so he ordered their urethane single stage.
He helped me do all the body work on it,then used the Omni line grey Epoxy primer,everything went smooth up until i shot that paint on,it seemed to spray nice,but not near enough coverage with the mettalic midnight blue to even cover a little ranger totaly in full color.
So he was dissapointed and let the thing sit all winter before he decided he wanted to paint it again.
Even after my advice to just go to the local body shop supplier i deal with and at least get a cheap Omni line paint,he ordered the Trinity 45 B/C C/C..( yea he's a hard headed fella to say the least)

Soooo,we sanded,epoxy prime once again,all went well,,sprayed the base coat according the manufacturers specs(or should i say backyard still directions?)..
By the time i came around to the last part of the truck on the first coat,i looked at the other side and somethin funnay was happenin...the paint was bubblin up like a compatibility problem..wth????? i used Epoxy sealer primer brand new..........
So i called the Trinity 45 guy myself at the phone number he had on his eBay pages,,his wife answers,not a biz phone,his home number,she TRIED solving the problem but the only thing she could keep saying was"that stuff sure does lay out nice doesn't it?"..at this point i was gettin really P'd,so she got her husband to call me back later,he had no idea either since i did EXACTLY as they're so called "manufacturers" spread sheet said to do(a peice of flyer paper on the mix,reducer and flash times)

So long story short,the guy gave him his money back for the base coat,but went against my suggestion of gettin ALL his money back and send the clear coat back too,but noooo,the cheap bastid HAD to use the clear because of how cheap he was,at this point,i wanted to throw in the towel and tell him to get someone else to paint it...but being such a great guy and freind...i continued this nightmare...

So to help him save money he already lost out the yahooo,i went and bought some paint i needed for a Bronco i was painting and selling,,Omni line VW Regatta Mettalic blue,since i bought the gallon kit for 100.00 and it mixes 50/50 with the reducer,that would give me 2 gallons.plenty enough to do his ranger and my bronco.
Long story short again..it all went well after that,and to my surprises the Trinity clear coat sprayed ok and in the end came out pretty nice..BUT,,this is NOT the end of it,6 months later?,the clear coat was pealing off in spots everywhere...i will NEVER deal with that paint again..PERIOD.
It seems they thrive on getting a pretty descent paint on at the time,IF it was a good batch,and then the people give good feedback on the eBay pages,but in a short time,the paint is peeling like a snake sheddin it's skin and it's too late to give the right customer feedback needed for the product.

I am by NO WAY taking up for this guy's mistakes at ALL in this thread,it seems he made some heavy mistakes,but we all been there and done that,as was said,just learn and move one and take the loss.

I am by far considered a "pro painter"..but have good common sense and have sprayed countless vehicles with great success following directions and at least using a mid range product on MY jobs,will never use a bottom of the barrel product again any anybody's project,that's for sure...

Here's a pic of the ranger after the final results,it sprayed on pretty nice with my SATAjet2000,we dicided to buff it out,and seemed to cut well too,,but like i said,6 months down the road,it was worthless.....
I was TRYING to find pics of the urethane that had a bad reaction of some sort,if i find it,i'll post them too,i took pics to send to Trinity 45 of the problem,this was back in 2007,it's on disk SOMEWHERE here...
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Old 09-10-2010, 07:02 AM
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Giving you the clear doesn't mean CRAP about if the product had problems!

1. He gave it to you to get rid of you!
2. He gave it to you because that was the easiest way out!
3. He gave it to you because he DIDN'T know what went wrong!
4. He gave it to you because there was no teaching you how to actually fix the problem because you can't get it out of your head that it WAS the clear!
================================================== ====
copy and paste.
-------------------------

LOL!!!
The minute I saw that post, what you said is exactly what I wanted to post but I was already coming off as a gruff, not the usual sweet and nice me. LOL
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Old 09-10-2010, 07:31 AM
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Jay ,the reason your getting so many explainations of the cause is because so many mistakes were made.... just start over......At the very begining.....with a better brand of paint and you'll be fine....follow the directions on the can....The most common mistake that I see made is that most people want to spray the base wet like a SS paint...This will get you in trouble every time. it should have a dull sheen that dries quick ....Three to four thin coats ,never a thick one...
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Old 09-10-2010, 11:16 AM
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LOL!!!
The minute I saw that post, what you said is exactly what I wanted to post but I was already coming off as a gruff, not the usual sweet and nice me. LOL[/QUOTE]

Dammm, Barry, you'll be calling for a group hug pretty soon? lol...
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