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Old 03-21-2011, 11:24 PM
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Clear Coat Question; Pictures Inside. I need advice.

Details
Car: 1994 Dodge Stealth
Paint used:
  • Nason Select Prime 421-19
  • Nason Ful-Base PRN
  • Nason 498-00 Select-Clear 2K + High Temp activator (70 degree weather)

Background
  • Car was taken down to original primer.
  • Two/Three coats of primer were sprayed. Dry/wet sanded 400/500 respectively.
  • Three coats of base. Prep work on primer allowed the base to lay out ideally smooth.
  • I used high temp activator and 498 specifically because I wanted a wet clear that would lay down exceptionally well.
  • I cleared the car in our driveway; one so that I could see what I was doing in the direct overhead sunlight, and two because the air was relatively clean (no bugs, light breeze, no pollen.)

Dilemma

I laid the clear coat on extremely thick, having read how well Nason clear is to work with; no need for a tack coat, technique, etc. In fact, so thick, that I could see the finish rippling as I went across the cars body with the gun. I also caused a few runs, but they'll be easy enough to get out. The paint laid down perfectly smooth almost everywhere. There are a few places that need the lightest sanding to even, but I could absolutely get away not even sanding, cutting, or polishing the finish - I was impressed to say the least.

In fact I was so impressed, I went inside to eat a large steak and celebrate with several champagne bottles. I woke up the next morning (yesterday) to find a cured coat. D'oh! This was my first paint job, but that's no excuse, I'll never let this happen again. So ruling out a chemical bond, I'll now have to scuff the beautiful clear to lay a second coat hoping for a strong mechanical bond.

Quantitatively, I believe I laid 'two coats' in a single pass, I really did hammer down. I cleared the hood and doors of the car with three medium coats, and I can't tell the difference between them and the car's body; same sheen, same apparent thickness, same texture. I really think I can get away with lightly sanding and buffing the car without going through the clear. And I consider using a mechanical bond for a 'second' coat of clear risky - I don't want delamination. And the most obvious reasion, it looks sooooo good, I'm more than happy with what I have.

Here's the problem, its not my car. The car belongs to my dad, who thinks that by not following the directions on the can, I'm half ***'ing the job. He's more worried about the posterity behind using two coats than the reasoning behind why two coats should be used. We also painted the car because the original clear coat began to peel away and oxidize after 16 years under the sun, so of course he's worried about longevity of a 'single' coat.

I'd like to hear what some of you have to say about this, if anything I'm trying the quell his discontent, but I absolutely want to know if I'm off base and suggesting we make a wrong turn. I was just outside looking at the car, disgusted at the possibility there is to destroy and risk what looks perfect for only the posterity of saying "we laid two coats per the manufacturer's instructions".

Here's what it looked like Sunday an hour after I finished clearing.







Here are some pictures I just took. Sorry about the lighting.









I'm worried the most about the black roof section, as it will require the most polishing to get the glass look I'm after. Reclearing a small section such as the roof doesn't really bother me, more so the lower portions of the car that will be subjugated to more wear; road debris, car washes, minor bumps, etc.

Tell me what you think..

-Paul

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Old 03-22-2011, 07:42 AM
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One coat of clear isn't enough,period. Here lies the problem, even if you were able to apply one kick butt even coat of clear over the whole thing you would be pushing it big time, when it flows out it the actual mil thickness in the end isn't much at all. But the biggest reason why I would say there isn't enough is that there is a VERY SLIM chance that you applied an even coat over the whole surface!

I know guys who have been painting for years who CAN'T seem to apply full coverage even with two or three coats! For a newbe to apply ONE coat and get full equal or even close to equal coverage would be a friggin miracle! I would say there is a VERY good to impossible chance that you have anywhere near an even coat of clear over the whole surface. There are probably areas with VERY LITTLE clear at all!

And here comes your next problem, recoating this without turning it into a wrinkling mess. If you have areas with very thin clear when you apply the next coat the solvents from the next coat will get UNDER the clear and lift it off the base! If you catalyzed the basecoat you are in a lot better shape, but still risk the VERY real chance of lifting/wrinkling. If you didn't catalyze the base you have a VERY, VERY real chance of lifting/wrinkling.

I would say lightly scuff the clear and apply another couple of coats. Don't sand it too thin, and for goodness sakes don't bomb it on heavy like the first time. Don't use too slow of a reducer if it isn't real warm. Spraying it too wet and spraying it with too slow of a reducer will allow the solvents to soak into the clear and lift it before it flashes off.

Brian
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Old 03-22-2011, 08:35 AM
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Scuff the entire car then let it sit in bright sunlight for an entire day. Wipe or wash clean & dry thoroughly. Apply a mist coat of clear and allow sufficient flash time. Apply a little heavier second and third coats. This is to eliminate any possibility of solvent pop and lifting of the base coat. The first mist coat of clear is very important, do not lay it on too thick.

Vince
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Old 03-22-2011, 02:48 PM
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Thanks! I'll be very careful to lay a fine mist coat.
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Old 03-24-2011, 07:52 AM
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[QUOTE=Emc209i I was just outside looking at the car, disgusted at the possibility there is to destroy and risk what looks perfect for only the posterity of saying "we laid two coats per the manufacturer's instructions".

[/QUOTE]

There's the book and then there's the real world.

A single coat is defined as 2 passes with the gun.

If you made 4 passes with the spray gun then there are 2 coats on there. Because you were in the sun the flash time between coats as you walked around the car spraying are probably mute.

Multiple coats are "old" technology anyway.. The car has a even gloss your happy with and are second guessing or you wouldn't be posting the question..

If you shot a gallon of clear on what is pictured then the mils are there... The question at this point is did you put a gallon of material on top of the base color?

I don't see any dry areas in the pictures and hope you would show the worst or suspicious areas to be fair and non bias.

You have a flare for slamming on the clear and will simply be a natural when the Envirobase Clear makes it to your state since its a One-visit or One-coat system that goes on just like you said and thats it. No wait between coats for bugs and dirt to have their turn while your watching a fifteen minute clock...



Do a search on google for Envirobase EC700 cause your way ahead of the curve..nice work!

Button that thing up and put it on the road for a few years and then let's get another look.

I think dad is in for a pleasent surprise.


bring it..
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Old 03-24-2011, 08:12 AM
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Milo, from the description of the job I have to assume this is one of his first paint jobs. To assume he put an even film of clear over the entire painted area, around edges, under lips, etc would be to assume he is the Elvis of painting (have you ever heard Elvis's first time in Sun Studios at 17 years old, sounded like a seasoned pro (click here) ) I have to believe it looks like your average paint job from a guy who has painted a few motorcycle gas tanks and firewalls, he missed a LOT on that ONE coat.

His gun speed and overlap changing on every panel and section would be normal, you could have four mils and a foot away have one, or even a half of a mil, seen it many times.

Like I say, unless he is the Elvis of painting, that thing could me more like this (click here). Though I do believe this kid has mad talent, his rhythm skills prove that, but it isn't Elvis.

Brian
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Old 03-24-2011, 08:32 AM
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just saying from the pictures it looks like it's in there.

I'm looking forward to his answer on the quanity rather than coats.. Also in my previous post I asked for a pic any of the dry or suspicious areas to be fair..The pic of the hood does look less than the gloss on the rest but that could be the lighting inside his garage and so it goes..
If it looked bad I'd tell him..

I know I know but it's 2011, the buggy whip is dead.
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Old 03-24-2011, 08:40 AM
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I'm going with the fact that if you don't know how to do it, you often don't know what to look for. Milo, I'm with you that it is possible this could all be worked out. I am simply going with what I see every friggin day at work. I have a "painter" who just doesn't get it, he just doesn't. He has been painting full time for a number of years and he STILL just doesn't get it. His jobs will have runs and dry spots with barely a coat on the same panel!

This is one of the biggest mistakes newbes make on primer, it isn't an even coat over the entire thing and it fails in one way or another. It could be primer on a long project and it rusts here and there before it's painted. It could be color and it isn't seen until it's rolled outside, it could be clear and it QUICKLY fails because there is no protection from the elements.

One coat is SERIOUSLY pushing it in my opinion unless experienced is SERIOUSLY pushing it in my opinion.

Brian
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Old 03-24-2011, 08:46 AM
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How MUCH (qts,gals,) do you think it should take leaving "coats" out of it just for grins before he gets back?
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Old 03-24-2011, 08:47 AM
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I know I am a bit anal on this but this is how I see it. Again, I see it every single day, so this hits a nerve with me.

Basics of Basics - Spaying technique

Brian
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Old 03-24-2011, 08:48 AM
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we keyed at the same time..2 gallons?
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Old 03-24-2011, 08:58 AM
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3 quarts ?

this is a fun one.
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Old 03-24-2011, 09:24 AM
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1 coat?

I'm with martinsr. on this. the clear is supposed to give u the wet look = shine. following manufacturer's sheet/directions are critical to any paint job. i would wet sand with 400 or 600 staying away from all edges, scuff edges Lightly with equivalent pad ( per ur suppliers brand= I use 3m white ) on all edges, tack = mist / cloudy look on edges all around come, back AFTER tack up mist all flats = if u see shine / wet look ur too heavy for mist coat. u need mist to grab old clear with best chance of not letting solvent get into lower coats & lift it (that's why its important to let it tack)/ as well as give fresh clear texture to grab so it doesn't run. U must have patience to let flash per coat=instruction sheet. 2 more coats same manner but slow down to get even shine & let solvents flash between coats. Remember u have to think robot to get even coat on entire vehichle. being as this is driveway job u r bound to get something in nice shiny finish, expect to let paint cure = manufacture's tech sheet! before u sand & 3 stage polish job. Just stay away from edges sanding & polishing good luck & patience & u should be able to give ur dad a job he can say is well done.
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Old 03-24-2011, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwart
u need mist to grab old clear with best chance of not letting solvent get into lower coats & lift it (that's why its important to let it tack)/ as well as give fresh clear texture to grab so it doesn't run. :
This is true of the Envirobase as well except the flash time is One minute per the tech sheet as everybody clings to says to build 3 mils all in one more coat and then clean the gun your done. It's why the youtube videos of Envirobase look so wrong to those of us who
are used to 8 hour paint sessions..
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Old 03-24-2011, 07:15 PM
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Huh, I wasn't expecting to come back and find this thread at the top of the body - exterior board.

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
There's the book and then there's the real world.
I think dad is in for a pleasent surprise.
Thanks Milo, and thank you for the opinion, it's nice to hear some thought along my lines.

Martin, a absolutely do not profess to be a professional, guru, or hidden talent. As I said before, this is my first job. I took to heart what you said Tuesday night, and re inspected the car in the daylight yesterday. I'm absolutely sure there will be variance in clear thickness from panel to panel. However, there aren't any dry spots, and I cleared everything; no holes, gaps, or mistakes. The undersides of the kick panels have the same sheen as the fenders. The reason for this is because I was extremely thorough. I laid the first coat of primer on March 1st, I've been going over every detail stage to stage - I'm a perfectionist. I'll go on record and say that I used 3/4 of the unactivated (4:1) gallon.

My father and I drew up a risk-benefit analysis and decided we were happy with what we had. We're worried specifically about solvent lifting the paint (which we're out of). I'm sure I could master tacking the surface, but at this point it's precision effort I'd rather be spending on other things - I have two more cars to paint. The car looks fantastic, new even. We're happy with that, being that only a month ago the car looked like it had been sitting in a field for years. The clear meets our visual expectations, and so we're gonna roll with what we have. I completely agree with Martin, and were this an expensive car, or a show piece, I'd have already mixed more clear - but it isn't, it's a cheap daily driver, and my first paint job. We'll see about longevity, I don't expect he'll own the car long enough to see what becomes of the coat.

I don't want to come across as obstinate, I really do appreciate all of the replies and time taken to put me in my place. You're all right, I concede, one coat is pushing the envelope, but we've decided to push it.

We put the car back together, and it looks great. I'll try to post some good photos soon.
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