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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 03-14-2005, 08:42 PM
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Bee4me, said:Is it even POSSIABLE to spray a "perfect" last coat of clear?

Happens every day, You just got to have the right spray booth,and as always the prep work is key.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 03-14-2005, 08:48 PM
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Yeah, urethanes. We're talking about show winning paintwork here right? Not production type that'll do just fine kinda work. Some of the Global clears offer enough protection with just one coat if applied right according to the rep.

Quote:Sorry no, Ive never had too. 5-6 coats is way to much and is the cause of most
paint problems other than poor prep work.With these new high solid clears
three coats is max, Most are two coats and still have some buffing room. Putting that much clear on traps solvents, causes fish eyes and peeling problems.

Yeah, I agree putting that much clear on in one step is way too much material and the chance of having problems is great. That's why I sand after three and apply two after that. Try it, I guarantee you'll see an increase in depth.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 03-14-2005, 09:07 PM
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Am with Bob and the others, appling 2-3 coats of clear sanding and appling 1-2 more coats does increase the gloss level.
Am a fan of PPG products always have but Dupont has some pretty darn good stuff. Their 7800 clear and Uroprime are hard to beat IMO...Eric
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 03-14-2005, 09:19 PM
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Yeah , I do mostly production work ,but on Mercedes ,Porsche's, BMW, 10 years ago every Mercedes sold had a show quality paint job.Now the new emission laws barely lets the put any paint on them. Cadillac is so tight that if you have to sand a dirt nib out under warranty you have to reclear it. If you sprayed enough you wouldnt need the extra coats.
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Old 03-15-2005, 01:44 AM
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First of all, let me say that this is a very informative topic

I’m a big fan of the “flow coat” and use it when ever convenient so I understood what the test was about.......What I didn’t understand is why some of you have been using grits finer then 800 between clear coats.......I mean the finer the grit between coats (like 1500).......the more of a chance of having an adhesion problem down the road right? ........less “tooth” for the clear to bite on to

That's why I've been sanding with 400 and 600 before the flow coat..........Though after reading this topic I may just stick with 400
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Old 03-15-2005, 07:36 AM
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It depends on how long your waiting to sand and reclear.Because theres a chemical and physical adhesion. Most paint companies tell you not to spray over anything larger than a 600 scratch, sanding paste and a gray scotty is what most painter use.You can reclear over sikkens upto 24 hours without touching it with sandpaper.
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Old 03-15-2005, 09:03 AM
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This is very interesting, I've never tried a "flowcoat" with clear.
But back in th 70's I sprayed a lot of acrylic enamel in my garage
under the worst conditions, with minimal equipment. I used to
spray just enough color to cover the panel, wait 24 hrs, fine sand
and paint it again. It would always come out great and smooth as glass
when I painted over a panel the second time, I could never get that
finish on the first spraying. I never could explain why that was.
Maybe now I will try it with the urethane clear.
Hmmmmm very interesting.
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Old 03-15-2005, 09:57 AM
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Ya, I'm sure the "flow coat" has been around sence they first started custom painting

But evrybody has there way of doing it.........here is how I do mine....

---> Click here for Link <---

^
.l
.l
.l

Last edited by myfamiliacc; 03-15-2005 at 10:09 AM.
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Old 03-15-2005, 10:10 AM
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Deleted message.

Last edited by BarryK; 03-15-2005 at 10:42 AM.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 03-15-2005, 12:27 PM
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The reason most people use a flow coat is to correct or fix problems they had during the the early stages of the painting process.Bad prep work,using sealer and bad spraying technique causes most problems, if the first coat isn't smooth the last one probably won't be. Try this next time you paint something.

1. Final prep should be 500 wet for solid colors 600 for metallics.Any bare metal and defects should have been re-primed and sanded before getting this far.Degrease and blow the car off be sure to hit all the jambs. Have a good tac rag ready and use between each coat of base,don't forget to tac the masking paper the first time around.

2. Don't use sealer. Sealer is a crutch for bad prep work, its used allot in production work as insurance and faster coverage, but we're talking about show car quality here. Its basically a thinned out primer.

3.Base coats should be applied in full medium wet coats and allowed to flash completely. spraying dry coats only adds orange peel. Don't worry about metallic control yet, your just trying to get good smooth coverage.If you see striping your holding the gun to close or its not spraying correctly, do a test pattern on some masking paper . If its not a fairly straight line clean your nozzle an cap. Before the last coat and on completely flashed base go around the car with a clean hand and some 2000 grit paper and lightly hit all the dust you find. The last coat should be the same even medium wet coat only this time after each panel while still wet, hold the gun about a foot back and in fairly quick speed mist a coat over the entire panel ,this should take care of any mottling .The object is to get complete coverage in as few and thin of coats of base as possible, 10 coats does'nt make it look any deeper than three and only leads to solvent and durability problems.

4. Clearing...Now for the fun part. If everything went right you should have a nice smooth even base laid down,go around and do a final check .Tac,de-nib and spot any defects you find .Most paint companies are geared toward production body shops,thats where their money is. So most clears are built around speed and durability and to match todays mostly Peely OEM paint jobs.To get a truly slick job you have to do one of two things, apply it so heavy that it forces it to flow out , or slow it down by using slower hardeners and reducers. The first way is the worst way. It leads to runs,to much buildup, and solvent related problems and because it traps so much solvent it actually dries slower. The second way is always best, by using the proper hardener and reducer you can apply a nicer, slicker finish with less running than using something that dries to fast. You ever see a paint job that looked like a corn cob with runs in it, if the clear is drying before it can flow out , your first reaction will be to make it flow by hammering it harder. Slow it down
apply lighter wetter coats and you'll find all that time sanding and buffing could have been spent admiring you hard work with a frosty cold one. . Each coat should be wet and even with enough flash time so the clear doesn't string when touch the masking paper.Depending on your setup you'll probably use a higher air pressure than the base coat did. On the last coat all top panels should be double coated by backing up the gun and fogging the center sections while still wet, be sure to stay off edges and hard body lines. One more tip , spray every car like its a square box , all hard to get to spots should be hit first ,like wheel wells and roof edges, Start before a gap ( doors and hood) and spray slightly past it, be careful not to over lap coats at body lines.


Wow I cant believe I typed all this.Ive been home with the flu for the past four days and I think the medicine and boredom is getting to me.

Hope this helps
Craig
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 03-15-2005, 04:28 PM
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you will get an overall better look if you wetand with 400 then lay a flawless coat of clear ,instead of cutting and buffing .plus if you wetsand with 400 you are taking all that ripple away you get while spraying the base and all that clear .
thats the way i've always known to do it .
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 03-15-2005, 06:09 PM
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I hope everyone appreciates this thread and what can be learned from it.
How "we all do things different" is not the point. Barry's life is making these products perform better. What he has report are FACTS gathered from testing. Not "this is how I do it" but from testing WITH A STANDARD. This is very important, you have to have a STANDARD to have any definitive results.

If we do something everyday one way, one day we do it different and we "think" it works better is not a "test". Testing many different procedures or products with NO DESIRE of a particular outcome result in true answers.

Do what you want, but read Barry's posts again. Take that information, unbiased information, and put it to use.

This isn't a "how to paint" thread, but a very interesting look at CLEARS.
Brian
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Old 03-15-2005, 06:41 PM
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I totally agree, and appreciate the sharing of information that goes on here. People will always do as they do and believe what they like but it sure is nice to compare notes,
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 03-15-2005, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p8nter
The reason most people use a flow coat is to correct or fix problems they had during the the early stages of the painting process.Bad prep work,using sealer and bad spraying technique causes most problems, if the first coat isn't smooth the last one probably won't be. Try this next time you paint something.

1. Final prep should be 500 wet for solid colors 600 for metallics.Any bare metal and defects should have been re-primed and sanded before getting this far.Degrease and blow the car off be sure to hit all the jambs. Have a good tac rag ready and use between each coat of base,don't forget to tac the masking paper the first time around.

2. Don't use sealer. Sealer is a crutch for bad prep work, its used allot in production work as insurance and faster coverage, but we're talking about show car quality here. Its basically a thinned out primer.

3.Base coats should be applied in full medium wet coats and allowed to flash completely. spraying dry coats only adds orange peel. Don't worry about metallic control yet, your just trying to get good smooth coverage.If you see striping your holding the gun to close or its not spraying correctly, do a test pattern on some masking paper . If its not a fairly straight line clean your nozzle an cap. Before the last coat and on completely flashed base go around the car with a clean hand and some 2000 grit paper and lightly hit all the dust you find. The last coat should be the same even medium wet coat only this time after each panel while still wet, hold the gun about a foot back and in fairly quick speed mist a coat over the entire panel ,this should take care of any mottling .The object is to get complete coverage in as few and thin of coats of base as possible, 10 coats does'nt make it look any deeper than three and only leads to solvent and durability problems.

4. Clearing...Now for the fun part. If everything went right you should have a nice smooth even base laid down,go around and do a final check .Tac,de-nib and spot any defects you find .Most paint companies are geared toward production body shops,thats where their money is. So most clears are built around speed and durability and to match todays mostly Peely OEM paint jobs.To get a truly slick job you have to do one of two things, apply it so heavy that it forces it to flow out , or slow it down by using slower hardeners and reducers. The first way is the worst way. It leads to runs,to much buildup, and solvent related problems and because it traps so much solvent it actually dries slower. The second way is always best, by using the proper hardener and reducer you can apply a nicer, slicker finish with less running than using something that dries to fast. You ever see a paint job that looked like a corn cob with runs in it, if the clear is drying before it can flow out , your first reaction will be to make it flow by hammering it harder. Slow it down
apply lighter wetter coats and you'll find all that time sanding and buffing could have been spent admiring you hard work with a frosty cold one. . Each coat should be wet and even with enough flash time so the clear doesn't string when touch the masking paper.Depending on your setup you'll probably use a higher air pressure than the base coat did. On the last coat all top panels should be double coated by backing up the gun and fogging the center sections while still wet, be sure to stay off edges and hard body lines. One more tip , spray every car like its a square box , all hard to get to spots should be hit first ,like wheel wells and roof edges, Start before a gap ( doors and hood) and spray slightly past it, be careful not to over lap coats at body lines.


Wow I cant believe I typed all this.Ive been home with the flu for the past four days and I think the medicine and boredom is getting to me.

Hope this helps
Craig

so thats how they paint all those show winning cars!!! who would have guessed........all that wasted work, if they would just have done it like this they wouldn't have to wetsand and buff.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 03-16-2005, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baddbob
I totally agree, and appreciate the sharing of information that goes on here. People will always do as they do and believe what they like but it sure is nice to compare notes,


I second that

And Barry.......thinks for taking the time in letting us know about your experiment and the surprising results
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