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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 03-16-2005, 10:28 AM
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Wow tuff crowd. mrcleanr6 , Thats not how all of them do it just the really good ones. . I quess I didnt make my self clear. Sorry Barry, I totally agree with your findings. What barry didn't say is what the reading of the unsanded and re-cleared panel was. My point wasn't that he was wrong, it was that any time you add a scratch you lose gloss.The reason 400 has more gloss than 800 is because it has halve the scratches, but it will never have as much as the originally sprayed clear.Sorry if I sounded arrogant,that wasn't my intension,and sometimes I forget that some of you are amateur DIYers.The truth is that painting a car all one color, sanding it flat and either buffing or re-clearing it to show quality is something my second year apprentice can do.Try blending a three stage candy red into an adjacent panel without seeing a halo sometime.I thought the point of all Barry's hard work was to find the perfect formula to achieve the highest gloss. Never sanding the clear is the perfect way!. I have painted allot of show cars from Rusty Wallaces race-cars to $150,000 AMG Mercedes, anything that touches the clear after that dulls it.


Peace
Craig

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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 03-16-2005, 11:04 AM
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[QUOTE=Pinter]Wow Duff crowd. McLean , Thats not how all of them do it just the really good ones. :thumb up:
************************************************** ***
Really good ones? McLean is a National show winner with motor cycles.
Bk

. I ques I didn't make my self clear. Sorry Barry, I totally agree with your findings. What Barry didn't say is what the reading of the unsounded and re-cleared panel was.
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& &&
Yes, I said re-clearing "with a good clear" 30-40 % gain MIN.
BK


My point wasn't that he was wrong, it was that any time you add a scratch you lose gloss.The reason 400 has more gloss than 800 is because it has halve the scratches, but it will never have as much as the originally sprayed clear.
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& &
This would seem like common sense, but totally wrong. Stay posted, have an open mine, some of the best of the best are on here and you will learn.
BK

Sorry if I sounded arrogant,that wasn't my intension,and sometimes I forget that some of you are amateur Dyers.The truth is that painting a car all one color, sanding it flat and either buffing or re-clearing it to show quality is something my second year apprentice can do.
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& &&
He is that good and working as a trainee? Wow! He must be a total idiot to work for those wages, if hes that good.
BK

Never sanding the clear is the perfect way!.
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& &
Sorry cant be done.
BK

I have painted allot of show cars from Rusty Wallace's race-cars to $150,000 AMIGA Mercedes, anything that touches the clear after that dulls it.
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& &
Not if you know how to buff, the black goat will be in the area of $300,000
when done this spring, if what you said is true why will it take me 4-5 days just buffing? Don;t think for a minute you can lay your ****kins clear better than I can.
By the way, all the shows I have ever been in I have never seen a top 10 job with **** kins or a top 100 for that matter.
Don't talk to people on here like there all morons.
BWK
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 03-16-2005, 11:23 AM
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Well,What did your gloss meter read on the untouched panel?
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Old 03-16-2005, 02:32 PM
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Quote=BarryK
Yes, I said re-clearing "with a good clear" 30-40 % gain MIN.
BK
----------------------------------------------------------
Doesnt matter what clear, Your own test proves you lose gloss when sanding and re-clearing.


This would seem like common sense, but totally wrong. Stay posted, have an open mine, some of the best of the best are on here and you will learn.
BK
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again..your test not mine!




He is that good and working as a trainee? Wow! He must be a total idiot to work for those wages, if hes that good.
BK
------------------------------------------------------------------------
He has a good teacher, and yeah a lot of sanding and buffing can make some pretty crappy paint look good.



Sorry cant be done.
BK
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe not in a garage, Ever sprayed in a $100.000 Blowtherm. Plus theres the whole being good thing .




if what you said is true why will it take me 4-5 days just buffing? Don;t think for a minute you can lay your ****kins clear better than I can.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
First, Your spending 4-5 days buffing to take out any dirt and orange peel to give it a cleaner, slicker, better overall apperance, you started this thread about testing a clears gloss level. Secondly, Ive never see your work...and you havent seen mine. That sounds like alot of buffing though.



Don't talk to people on here like there all morons.
BK
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I have offended anyone ,Im sorry. Every thing ive said was meant to help.
Its still doesnt change the fact that your own test proves me right. Your test
shows that sanding and re-clearing, no matter what grit used has a measurable affect on gloss. When you paint your black goat,find the nicest,slickest spot on the car and tape off a small square.Then sand buff all around it till your completely happy,but not waxed. Pull the tape off and it will look like a dark square. Dont confuse how slick it is with how deep and bright the color is.I have painted thousands of cars over the last thrity something years , You listen , you might learn something.


Peace
Craig
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 03-16-2005, 08:18 PM
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Craig, I hate to stir this up more, but you're a bit confused. You say there is no increase in depth after three coats of clear but you are very wrong. Is there a difference in depth after 1 coat? answer-yes. 2 coats? answer-yes. 3 coats and more answer-of course. It only stands to reason if you see an increase after 1 coat that there is also an increase on the following coats. Barry's test was aimed at determining what grit worked best related to as sprayed gloss when doing a two step clear. You said there is no reason to apply more than three coats so I'm guessing you must just be satisfied with the results you achieve blowing three coats on and calling her good. You are also way off on your buffing reduces gloss theory, unless you don't know how to buff and polish? So, you've painted Rusty's race car and a $150,000 AMG Mercedes- Knowing that these examples are probably as sprayed I bet if my work was parked next to them you'd be red in the face. Blending tri stage colors-woopdedo, been doing it for years along with thousands of other painters across the country- it just takes good gun control and a let down panel to find what coverage you need-it's not a miraculous ability sent from the heavens that was blessed upon you. Sorry to get worked up here but you're just wrong..........
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 03-16-2005, 10:23 PM
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Wow, what a shame a super interesting thread can go down the drain over crap like this. I was going to start another thread to take the bickering too but I guess it doesn't matter now.

Barry, Craig, you two are talking about two totally different paint jobs, show and collision. I have a great deal of respect for both genre. The production painter who can match a color, paint, blend then clear a job as to look like it has never been repaired. Multiply this by six to ten $50-100 thousand dollar luxury cars a day is pretty darn impressive. The show or custom painter who will prepare and paint a complete car not missing a single edge applying a "perfect" paint and clear and then the patience cutting and polishing to a zero orange peel finish on every square inch including the jambs is equally impressive.

If one guy can't appreciate the other and the art he can pull off with those hands, something is wrong. Either, one doesn't understand how difficult it is to do each job or he just wants to argue.

Craig, I have seen many shops who do exactly as you profess you do. The first was years ago in the golden age of Imron. This shop, with a "hot rodded" old cross draft booth did FLAWLESS, not one single spec of dust,"glass smooth", jobs. Since then, I have seen many more. One had a Blowtherm booth as you do, he also had a different gun for every family of colors! No kidding, he had about 20 guns! NEVER did one used for red get blue shot thru it. Not only that, a solid red gun didn't get metallic red shot thru it! He had plugs over the gun nipples so no dust could go up in the gun when it wasn't being used. The booth NEVER had a single piece of sandpaper in it and was like a clean room. He produced FLAWLESS, "GLASS SMOOTH" not one spec of dust, jobs.

In a collision shop you SHOULD be able to do that, but THAT is not what we are talking about.

HOWEVER, these were maybe "glass smooth" for a production shop to restore a 2004 Lexus LS430 to "pre-accident" condition, it was NOT, not by any stretch of the imagination a "Glass smooth" show or custom paint job.

If you think that one of your out of the gun jobs is going to beat the top of the heap at a "real" car show, you are mistaken. Honestly, no hard feelings, nothing personal, honestly. If you think that, you have never been to a real car show.

Barrys test is certainly not designed to find what is the best way to clear a job at XYZ collision shop. It is was a test to find what would produce the best gloss you can get "out of the gun". Any shop who is doing this type of work on that Lexus is a shop that isn't making any money.

You have some SUPER good info in your posts, other than a couple of things in my opinion 100% right on. However, it in no way, NO WAY changes what Barrys test proved.

Lastly, you really have to "read the room". This particular thread had mostly imput from pros. But, like most forums of this kind, it is for the home hobbiest. Come on now, you can't expect a home hobbiest to have access to a $100,000 booth and the skills to pull off a job that doesn't require some cutting and buffing? So, being that is a fact, all the argument is a moot point. 99.9% of anyone who reads this isn't going to have the conditions you have. The conditions are 99.9% of why you can pull off the jobs you do. If you painted in a garage you would be buffing too.

I have discussed Barry's test with a number of guys who paint and all find it interesting. I don't remember who said it, but "How can we be sure about anything without first questioning what we think to be true"?

I personally can't wait until the next test is posted.

Last edited by MARTINSR; 03-16-2005 at 10:36 PM.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 03-17-2005, 04:00 AM
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Wow...this did start to go bad a bit, huh? I think what got missed was the content of the clear/gloss index thing. A few pages back we discussed that.

I think that EVERY step makes a difference. Given that, the 1st steps are the most critical, and every pro on this topic knows that. Sometimes gloss and clarity are over-rated. There are areas on many cars due to refractive shape that will NEVER EVER be peel free. These areas magnify themselves. I just bout had it licked when the new 4to1 sh!# surfaced. Now gotta start over. Anyone ever seen that?
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 03-17-2005, 10:34 AM
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Man , How did this go so wrong. I found this board while Ive been home sick for a few days and thoght' cool something to do and maybe I can help some young painters while im doing it. Im new here so I don't know who the pros are and who's not. Barry's test are very interesting and meant to find the best way to squeeze out every percent of gloss his meter can read. Probably no one here could look at them panels and see the 18% difference his meter shows.Am I missing something here, This isn't about what makes the best looking show car, Its what makes his meter go up the most. Thats how I took it anyway,I really thought this was a hypothetical discussion. so if we are getting ready for a big show where this meter determines the winner, I think a well sprayed unbuffed car would win.

Baddbob, Go back and read what i said again.I never said one or two coats looked better than three. I said if you put three coats on and sand it with 320 or 400 then apply a flow coat.You really only have two coats where i have a full three and mine doesn't have the gloss lose that Barry's meter clearly proves.

My writing style must not translate what I want to say very well, cause I really didn't come here to pick a fight. " Dammit Jim, Im a painter not a typist."


Sorry for the confusion.
Craig
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 03-17-2005, 11:16 AM
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Craig, I beg to differ, I think you explained your procedure very well. And honestly, I think your comments are very useful, just not in this thread. Hang around, no hard feeling here as far as I am concerned.

Brian

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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 03-23-2005, 10:40 PM
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clear test

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this topic. After reading all of the painting topics I have come to realize that I have been attempting to paint cars since about 1973 .

I have really had my eyes opened.

Thanks for all of this great advice

Keith Daleen
Sedalia,Mo.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 03-25-2005, 09:40 AM
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Hey gang......I have read every word of this thread,....taken it all in and learned alot.I am a professional painter/body man.I am sure there are as many ways to paint as there are stars in the sky,but with that said,im gonna try some of everyones methods and find what works in my enviroment.But in all fairness I do see both sides of the coin........thanks for posting everyone!
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