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View Poll Results: Cold air vs Ram air
Cold Air 17 60.71%
Ram Air 11 39.29%
Voters: 28. You may not vote on this poll

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  #151 (permalink)  
Old 05-19-2009, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerrodsmike
That is a flat out lie. Yes a lie.

None of your posts in this thread were removed or edited. By anyone.
So, there you have it. Thanks for the clarification, PRM. I should have known better than to question it, MY BAD.

Ap, double check your procedures, anyone can make a mistake.

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  #152 (permalink)  
Old 05-19-2009, 07:19 AM
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I feel it is necessary to let the participants in this thread in on some of the guidelines that moderators must follow.

No post is ever deleted unless it is spam or a duplicate post. No post is ever edited of technical content by a moderator, no matter what we think of it. It is left up so that it can be debated, for obvious reasons.
Only posts with offending content are edited or dumped. Any dumped posts can be viewed in the dump, anyone who takes about 30 seconds to look at what has been dumped for the last 5 months from the entire board can see that there are no posts from this thread in the dump. Once in the dump, it stays there until it falls off automatically due to age.

Posts that have been edited for content show who the last edit was made by. All members can see whether or not a post was edited, it is plainly visible in the post foot margin. None of ap72's posts were edited.

Although ap72 is stubborn and argumentitive, and does not debate well, and sometimes has unpopular technical opinions, he is not obnoxious, threatening anyone's person, or doing anything against our guidelines, so none of his posts had any reason to be removed.

The off topic posts I considered removing were the non technical chat type posts made by 83SILVERADO and 72fordlb..(see posts 6,7, 8,9 for those examples), as you can see, they are still up, and have not been dumped. There were also some non technical posts referring to assumptions about member's schooling that a quick review of this thread will show are still up as well.


I don't call anyone a liar often, or use the word lightly.

The technical discussion of this subject has long been over, I am locking this thread to prevent tampering by anyone. Anyone who would like me to open this thread for any new and fresh evidence of a technical nature can PM me or any of the engine forum mods.

Later, mikey
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  #153 (permalink)  
Old 05-19-2009, 05:49 PM
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I reopened this thread to set a few things straight.

First of all there are plenty of high pressure areas you can exploit to gain a "RAM AIR EFFECT", in the front bumper, the cowl area, the area just behind the roof just to name a few.

It is quite obvious no one in this thread has ever done back to back testing to find the best spot to gain an advantage by utilizing these high pressure areas to boost engine output.

I did just such a thing on my 1981 RX7 GT3 car and I picked up 15 mph on a 1/3 mile straightaway...my top speed down that straight went from 110-125mph. The cars that normally would drop me like a stone on that straight I could hang with right to the braking point (5.0L Mustangs in a higher class GT2).

Now is a rotary engine equivalent to a V8, absolutely not...they are extremely sensitive to intake pressure and make huge gains from even small increases in intake pressure. Was 0.3 psi of intake pressure reduction significant in the performance of the vehicle? Was it illegal according to the rules in GT3?

YOU BET IT WAS! Hey it passed tech!

So before you all break out your calculators and keyboard jockey this whole thing to oblivion I suggest you go out and do your homework and actually build a high pressure area induction pickup and see how many extra ponies you can make for free.

An engine is an air pump and anything that reduces the pumping losses will be a gain, how much of a gain depends on where the high pressure area on your car is and how you exploit it.

BTW I made no changes to the carb (Holley 650DP Spreadbore) since the carb bonnet also feeds the bowl vents so the carb sees the same air pressure as the engine. Air temperature did not change (I measured it) since the original air intake setup I had ran to the fog lamp hole in the front bumper...obviously the cowl area was a much better point to pick up air at a higher pressure. I imagine the air at track level was stagnant airflow hence why there was not much of a gain except for the air temp being lower from the fog lamp pickup.

A sealed cowl induction hood will get you most of the gains as I described, they are effective performance devices and except for a small increase in drag raise engine ouput far more than the drag they induce.

In short high air pressure areas on the car are free HP for those willing to exploit them, anyone who tells you different has never done it and does not understand the physics behind it.

Said my piece, keep on rodding.
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  #154 (permalink)  
Old 05-19-2009, 10:35 PM
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After much discussion in the moderator forum this thread has been reopened.

After review of the server logs it has been confirmed there has been no thread tampering by any of the mods...editing for content yes...WATCH YOUR LANGUAGE!

It has been suggested that lost threads may be due to server updating or browser glitches at the users end, there have been some formatting glitches showing up in the last few weeks related to specific browsers that we are tracking down.

On a personal note I would like to remind everyone that this is the internet and nothing is guarenteed, I have lost posts in the past...I'm sure if you do this forum stuff long enough so will you. We take accusations of stifling of freedom of speech quite seriously here, however if your swearing in print on the forum your fair game for a beheading.

In the future please remember to ask if your having problems with posting on the forum, accusing the mods of wrongdoing is counterproductive to finding out the root of the issue...and keeps us up at night.

Have fun, keep it civil.
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  #155 (permalink)  
Old 05-19-2009, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4 Jaw Chuck
It is quite obvious no one in this thread has ever done back to back testing to find the best spot to gain an advantage by utilizing these high pressure areas to boost engine output.

I did just such a thing on my 1981 RX7 GT3 car and I picked up 15 mph on a 1/3 mile straightaway...my top speed down that straight went from 110-125mph. The cars that normally would drop me like a stone on that straight I could hang with right to the braking point (5.0L Mustangs in a higher class GT2).
First of all, you have to isolate the root cause of your gains... was it "ram" air or simply the fact that you changed to cold air? An engine is an engine... period. Pressure is pressure. One engine is no more succeptible to increased intake air pressure than another. Not to mention... what were the atmospheric conditions? Did you correct for STP? It also stands to reason in a rotary that the additional free-flowing breathing would allow more HP up top, but not from ram air.

Again... I have to differentiate between flow and pressure. Any engine will benefit from additional flow IF the original intake was a restriction, but .... and I'll separate this with a big break...





I don't care if your ram air intake makes an additional 1000 hp, its NOT because of increased pressure. As has been shown a few hundred times in this thread, the amount of pressure increase that is available from moving air over a car is so insanely small, that at best it could only possibly generate a few HP at 150 mph. The math has been done, the physics cannot be ignored.

4jaw... I respect your input, but no matter how you slice it, FLOW DOES NOT EQUAL PRESSURE. I fully understand how your intake made more power, but it was NOT from pressure. It is mathematically and physically impossible for those gains to be attributed to pressure from the intake.

For instance, let's assume that the vehicle weighs 2500 lbs. That means to get a 110 mph trap speed, you need 245 hp. To get a 125 mph trap speed, you need 360 hp. What you are suggesting is that your ram air setup gave you 115 hp???? I don't think so. That's 30% more power. You can't pick up 15 mph in the traps swapping from a small block to a big block, so how on earth could a simple intake swap make 115 hp??? To put that in perspective, a ram air setup would have to create about 5 psi in order for that to be possible.

Last edited by curtis73; 05-19-2009 at 11:48 PM.
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  #156 (permalink)  
Old 05-19-2009, 11:55 PM
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Those kind of gains may be due at least in part to aerodynamic improvements, depending on what the device is designed, located and shaped like.

Improving the trap speed in 1/3 mile from 115 to 125 MPH is nothing short of astonishing, much more than could possibly attributed to JUST ram air, by all I've understood on the subject.

If we were talking about 1/4 mile standing start (which we're not, I realize) this speed increase would be on the order of 75-80 HP for a 2500 lb. car!

If you're not in the process of taking out a patent on it, I'd be very interested in seeing the ram air system if that's possible.
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  #157 (permalink)  
Old 05-20-2009, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curtis73

That means to get a 110 mph trap speed, you need 245 hp. To get a 125 mph trap speed, you need 360 hp. What you are suggesting is that your ram air setup gave you 115 hp????
Calm down... He was not talking about trap speed. He stated he gained 15 mph at the end of a 1/3 mile straight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4JawChuck
I did just such a thing on my 1981 RX7 GT3 car and I picked up 15 mph on a 1/3 mile straightaway...my top speed down that straight went from 110-125mph.
Later, mikey

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  #158 (permalink)  
Old 05-20-2009, 01:57 AM
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Here is a pretty good discussion about ram air, from the Land Speed Racing website. The discussion includes people who actually use it, know how to tune it, know when it works, and when it doesn't, talk about some of what needs to be done to tune it properly, and if you click on the link to the Tom Burkland discussion of various aspects of vehicle design, and scroll down you will read some pretty interesting stuff. Tom Burkland is the current AA/BFS record holder at 417 mph. He also discusses some of the setup that Mike Nish runs on his AA/FS which also holds the record at 377 mph on the salt. I'd venture a guess that those guys might have real experience with maximizing everything they can get.

http://www.landracing.com/forum/inde...ic,1554.0.html

Some more cool stuff.

http://www.landracing.com/forum/inde...ic,5507.0.html

http://www.landracing.com/index.php?...ask=view&id=22

There is a bunch more, just do a search for "ram air" on that site..

I just put that stuff up so that those who have talked about how hard it is to tune can see why. So far I have not heard one word about the needs of the motor at a given RPM, or what happens when the scoop is too big, or when the scoop is too small. Just adding a air duct in a place where there is positive pressure is not all there is to it.

I would further venture a guess that a guy who wants to pick between ram air or cold air on a 98 Camaro would be much better off choosing cold air, as he might lack the necessary resources to adequately design and test his ram air setup. So although there are gains to be had, finding them is out of reach for most all regular hotrodder types.

As was stated several times by the guys who actually design and use ram air setups, in itself it is only truly beneficial for a narrow rpm range and speed, and just plumbing a duct in a convieniant location with high pressure can really only give the same kind of across the board performance gains that you'd get from cutting your mufflers off. Unless the duct supplies colder air than what's previously available...

Just some food for thought.

Later, mikey
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  #159 (permalink)  
Old 05-20-2009, 02:47 AM
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First lets describe the test/race conditions;

The car was a 1981 Mazda RX7, 12A rotary engine, racing beat header dumped out the passenger side through a 2-1/4" pipe, Racing Beat Intake topped with a Holley 650 DP spreadbore carb, rear axle ratio was 4.11:1, car weighed 2000 pds wet with me in it, engine was stock except for above mentioned mods and premixed fuel at 50:1 ratio to eliminate the stock oil injection system.

The straightaway had a long 90 degree entrance from turn 9, entry speed was about 35 mph. Turn 1 at the end of the straightaway was a wide hairpin that was taken at 90mph...except for a lift of the throttle to set the car I slid the car through that corner and kept my foot in it. It took me 10 races until I was brave enough to do that.

Typically the Mustang 5.0L I raced against would pull 5 car lengths on me at the end of the straight, the driver was very skilled and the car was modified with heavier springs, B303 cam, cold air under hood intake, 3.73:1 posi axle and who knows what else. If I had to guess I would say the car was a high 13 low 14 second car in the 1/4 mile. We switched cars once and it was a handful (I spun it but good! ). I had a slight advantage (very slight) in the tight sections of the track but he would kill me on the straights.

To make a long story short I tried everything to make my car fast enough to keep up with him even though he was in a faster class. I started with different types of induction systems, I tried picking up air close to the track from the fog lamp position, hood off with a curved 6" dia pipe facing into the direction of travel and facing away from the direction of travel, twin air pipes from the fog lamp position and "no hood" with just an open aircleaner. The fog light hoses were 4" diameter (for clearance) fed into the stock air cleaner and duct taped into position

All of these experiments took place the same day, the tubing I used was the aluminum flexible pipe used for dryer vents available from any hardware store, standard hose clamps did the clamping duty. I used a thermocouple to measure the air temp, I didn't check barometer because all the test were performed back to back. If it sounds redneck...well it was.

Of all the tests I performed only the backwards facing scoop and the cowl induction showed any gains, the backwards facing scoop showed only minor gains in final top speed on the straight, I think it was 5 mph if memory serves (the increase in drag from the hood being off didn't help).

However the cowl induction setup was spectacular, the engine felt completely different as speed rose and I had to adjust to the gain in rpm to not miss shifts from 2-3. In fact I could grab fifth but there was no gain on the stop watch so I stayed in 4th and revved it out to 8200 by the end of the straight (not so great for stock apex seals).

The area in front of the windshield has a vented grille on this car and I simply cut a 6" diameter hole in the firewall and sheetmetal screwed a dryer hose adapter into the passenger side of the cowl vent, this setup had the shortest length of hose and simply plugged directly onto the carb flange and was held in place with a large hose clamp. The noise in the interior of the car was outrageous and easily drowned out the open exhaust noise, if I had to describe it think formula one car at full wail.

That same day I raced the Mustang and he spun on the entrance to turn 1 because he did not expect me to be in the inside line, he spun it twice in that race because suddenly I was right there with him and he couldn't take his normal line.

In my subsequent testing I taped streamers on the hood and windshield to find out where the sweet spot was and fine tune the setup, at the cowl the streamers went towards the cowl vent at speeds up to 136 mph (top speed for the car). Taping off sections of the cowl vent (to reduce drag) had little effect to the performance until I blocked off 60% of the grille area and it then dropped dramatically.

To answer the question of pressure versus flow, we are discussing dynamic flow rates not static, you cannot increase airflow through a tube of identical sizing without increasing pressure. Its really that simple.

Rotary engines are not like standard 4 strokes, they are more similar to a 2 stroke and are hence very sensitive to increases in airflow.

If I had to predict the increase in power I experienced I would say the engine picked up 40HP, from 140 to 180hp. Thats nothing to sneeze at in a under 2000 pd car.

I could wax poetic until I am blue in the face but I read an article a while back in a magazine that explains it beautifully, I no longer have the edition but I found it online for download (you have to pay).

Here is the link.

Prediction of Peak Cylinder Pressure Variations Over Varying Inlet Air Condition of Compression-Ignition Engine

One interesting aspect of performance I was not aware of until I read that article was that higher compression ratios gain more (percentage wise) from increases in intake pressure, riddle me that one Batman!

I have to stress that the carb needs to be sealed to the cowl vent, any leaks at the fittings bleeds precious pressure quickly, I found this out when I accidently pierced the aluminum foil tube with a screwdriver and left a 1/4 inch hole...performance dropped back to stock levels instantly (a wrap of duct tape fixed it right up).

I also tried various "spin" inducers inside the tube but all they did was restrict airflow and reduce performance. I never did get a chance to try one trick that Smokey Yunick describes in his book, apparently he ducted a hose into the clutch bellhousing and with a few well placed vanes welded to the clutch hat created a poor mans blower (without any sealing whatsoever) that help win them a few races back in the day. You would be surprised what a 0.5 psi forced induction will net you on the track. I highly suggest you read his book Power Secrets, it is meant for the SBC but is applicable to any engine.

Think outside the box gents, no one races dynomometers.
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  #160 (permalink)  
Old 05-20-2009, 05:43 AM
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Chuck on a malibu with a cowl scoop(not functional at this time) would opening this and sealing to the air cleaner be better than cold air ducted to the air cleaner ala thunderbolt style in your opinion?It will be mostly 1/8 mile speeds probably between 90 and 100mph thru the traps.Thanks
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  #161 (permalink)  
Old 05-20-2009, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barnym17
Chuck on a malibu with a cowl scoop(not functional at this time) would opening this and sealing to the air cleaner be better than cold air ducted to the air cleaner ala thunderbolt style in your opinion?It will be mostly 1/8 mile speeds probably between 90 and 100mph thru the traps.Thanks
You would have to try both setups to find out, every installation has different requirements. One thing is for sure, the less plumbing involved the better...I would lean towards a cowl induction setup being easier to integrate with a shorter path to the carb.

Air speed has a significant effect on how air flows around a moving body, while I was testing there were speeds where the streamer telltales taped to the hood and windshield
would do some funky aerobatics and at times stood straight out from turbulent airflow. Luckily there are all kinds of electronic pressure sensors on the market sensitive enough to easily tape in place for testing purposes. I used 1/8" clear vinyl aquarium hose taped to a stick in the passenger seat for my testing back in the old days, red food colored alchohol was the fluid.

I have a Heise PTE-1 calibration instrument now, wish I had one way back when I did all this.

Heise PT-1

One of the effects of ram air forced induction that gets overlooked is the efficiency gains that you get going from a manifold depression of -8"Hg to +1.5 psi at WOT, this is what I measured on my manometer setup with a vacuum gage hooked to the intake manifold. Most reference material do not discuss that much of the gains of forced induction happen when going from manifold depression to even a slight pressure. What is never mentioned is the efficiency gain when going from manifold depression to atmospheric pressure in the intake manifold, it is a double gain. In addition it is possible to redesign the motor to take advantage of positive pressure at the carb. Everyone knows blower engines need different camshafts, this is no different.

Last I have to mention you cannot compare a regular V8 four stroke to a Rotary engine, they are completely different animals. When I decribe the fuel usage rate that my little 1.3L rotary engine would use under race conditions most do not believe it, I used twice the amount of fuel per 10 lap race that the modified Mustang 5.0L would use. In other words I was using the same amount of fuel as a BBC. I ran dual Holley Red pumps and Holley pressure regulator and at WOT nothing was going back to the tank!

It doesn't matter if it only gains you 20HP at 100 mph...its free! Who doesn't like that?
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  #162 (permalink)  
Old 05-20-2009, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4 Jaw Chuck
higher compression ratios gain more (percentage wise) from increases in intake pressure
This is about all that intuitively DOES make sense to me!

I know of more ways to have R/A do nothing beneficial than helpful for my '81 Camaro (12.7 ET, 107 MPH), having spent the best part of three test/tune sessions at the Orlando Speed World track doing sealed air boxes- both ducted from the grill, beneath the nose and from the cowl area- tried a T/A scoop (functional) facing both ahead and reversed (like factory)- complete w/yarn taped to the openings to try to see if and when there was any indication of the air actually doing anything that would "help".

At the end of it all, I had concluded that w/o much more time and effort and better testing methods, I was not going to see any gains. And even with that, probably not.

It was both disappointing and rewarding that I found no gains from R/A, but was well worth the exercise for what WAS found- and that is the fact that on my set-up, a solid 0.10 second was gained in ET by:
  • Removing the rear spoiler
  • Using a chin spoiler

Also tried were under body smoothing and sealing various and sundry openings and seams, removing and installing the under-nose air dam (originally from an '81 Buick Regal) and removing the rear spoiler (the last two did help, aero-wise).

No matter where I ducted air from (was plumbed into a sealed "plenum" that had one entry for the air, one for the carb), no speed or ET improvments were seen.

Was I surprised? No.

Does this mean R/A doesn't work? It did not work on my car, with my methods and testing.

Does this mean R/A is a myth? No.

Does this mean R/A will not work for you? I don't know that answer.
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  #163 (permalink)  
Old 05-20-2009, 09:35 PM
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Drag racing is a short duration event, almost half of the time vehicle speeds are under 75 mph. With so many variables to contend with in a drag race how can you account for thousandths of a second decrease in track times due to ram air effect?

Road racing is where the gains have significant effects, track times are measured in minutes and sustained speeds are higher. Its the area under the HP curve that matters in road racing not just a 1/4 mile stretch of the track where you start off at zero mph.

The main point here is, it was suggested that ram air has no significant effect on engine performance. That couldn't be farther from the truth and the advantages are real and can be measured if the system is engineered correctly and the venue where it will be used takes advantage of the effect.
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  #164 (permalink)  
Old 05-21-2009, 12:21 AM
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How do you define ram air?

If you define it by the Pontiac brand ram air, then cold air wins, but if you use the literal definition, then a supercharger or tubocharger will ram air into your engine and ram air wins. But then again there is cold ram air, being nitrous, so I don't know, its probably a toss-up.
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  #165 (permalink)  
Old 05-21-2009, 04:42 AM
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Thanks for the reply I will try it both ways and see what works best.
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