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Old 06-01-2010, 04:20 PM
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Considering changing cam but am not sure need opinions on setup.

Hello guys well after having my engine for about a year now I am thinking about swapping out my cam for a slightly smaller one which is more street friendly but not a rv type cam. Current setup is as follows. Block was decked .010 and using flattop pistons. Currently running 87 octane and still want to be able too run it without too much bottom end cylinder pressure. Want to keep my iron heads from pinging and keep my current timing setting of about 16 initial and with vacuum advance hooked up 28 at idle and 34 mechanical by 3000 rpm Did compression test with gauge and turning engine over get 160 psi with out shooting oil in hole.

350 sbc world sportsman 2's 72cc 9:1 compression
Edelbrock rpm performer
Turbo 350 2000,2200 stall 3.42 gear ratio
Crane powermax roller 284/292 222/230 @ 50 509/528 lift

My engine does not have any issues with cam surge or anything like that and it seems to do fair cruising through town but I feel it kind of is still borderline for friendly street manners. This cam pulls strong way past 5000 rpm with no issues but I would like to maybe get a little more better throttle response with a lot more torque on the bottom end and midrange while still pulling good power clear too 5000 rpm and leveling off without taking a nosedive and still have a broad torque curve. Also don't want the cam to destroy my valve train anymore then what my current cam does. These are all hydraulic roller cams.

I have been looking at three different cams and would like your opinions on these and if I would benefit by changing to any of them with out loosing less then 10-15 hp but gaining some torque.

First one is a Howards cam which specs at 270/280 214/218 @50 with 488 495 lift with 112 lsa. Summit says power band 1000 to 4800 rpm and thats about it. I cant find too much more info on it.

Next is a Edelbrock rolling thunder 280/290 212/222@50 462/479 lift with 112 lsa and a power band of 1500-5500 rpm but they say that for all there perfomer plus cams.

Last one is a lunati voodoo cam 262/270 211/219 112 lsa 507/515 lift.

What do you guys think out of those three or should I maybe called howards cams and see about a custom grind if I give him all of my specs? Am not looking to make the most amount of power I can get just a nice daily driver street rod and I won't ever be taking my truck to the track. If anyone else out there might have a better recommendation then the ones about like maybe something from isky let me know. I don't want any comp stuff cause they are cast and not billet like the crane one I have.
Thanks guys
Eric

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Old 06-01-2010, 05:11 PM
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Have you considered leaving the motor alone and bolting in a little more converter?

For those playing along at home, here's the skinny on the cam that's in the motor now, from my Crane catalog:
Crane hydraulic roller, Powermax series
Grind #HR-284-2S-12-IG
Power range 2000-6200
Camshaft part #109831
Degrees duration @0.050" tappet lift, 222/230
Degrees duration advertised, 284,292
Degrees lobe separation, 112
Timing events, IO4/ IC38/ EO52/ EC-2
Gross lift, 0.509"/0.528"
Cam Facts: Good mid-range torque and horsepower. Fair idle, moderate performance useage, crate motor upgrade, mild bracket racing, auto trans with 2500+ converter. 3000-3800 cruise RPM, 9.5-11.0 compression ratio advised.

Eric, I'll play around on the DynoSim a little later and report back characteristics of your alternate choices to you. What are the intake runner sizes on the heads?

Edit: here's another choice in Crane's lineup, available from Summit....
Crane hydraulic roller, Powermax series
Grind #HR-216/339-2S-12.90 IG
Power range 1600-5800
Camshaft part #109671
Degrees duration @ 0.050" tappet lift 216/224
Degrees duration advertised 278/286 (suspected error in catalog shows 284/292, same as next longer cam).
Degrees lobe separation, 112
Timing events, IO 1/ IC 35/ EO 49/ EC -5
Gross lift 0.509"/0.528" (suspect this may be an error also, but cannot verify.)
Cam facts, Excellent low end and midrange torque and horsepower, good idle, daily useage, off-road, performance and fuel efficiency, 2600-3400 cruise rpm's. 8.75-10.75 compression ratio advised.

Last edited by techinspector1; 06-01-2010 at 05:50 PM.
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Old 06-01-2010, 05:26 PM
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Hello Techinspector the intake runners are 200cc. I know that is a little big for some bottom end type strong torque but I have seen other nice motors put together with that much intake runner volume on there heads and still make a nice 400 plus pound's of torque on a 350 with smaller cam grinds. Thanks for the desktopdyno that will be nice to see what the results are.
Take care
Eric
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Old 06-01-2010, 05:51 PM
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Edited my post to add a smaller Crane.....
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Old 06-01-2010, 06:13 PM
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All those are very good choices. Any of them will add some torque and efficiency right where you do the most of your daily city driving with your trans, gearing and converter. Another to consider is the GM ZZ4 350-355hp crate motor cam .

208-221 @.050" .474 .510 112 LSA. The port volume of the Sportsman heads are a little big if you want low rpm power and torque.
A vortec head is really really really hard to beat in the idle to 4500rpm range.
They are better than all the other heads in the reguard.
Another story.
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Old 06-01-2010, 07:33 PM
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RPM HP TQ
1000 53 279
1500 98 342
2000 145 380
2500 182 383
3000 231 405
3500 287 431
4000 336 441
4500 369 431
5000 392 412
5500 377 360
6000 329 288

Eric, I tried the next smaller Crane, got 388 ft/lbs @2000, but hp dropped to 375 @5000. Experimented with different cam timing, just plugging in different timing events and observing the results, was able to get 402 ft/lbs @2000 with a cam ground on 102 LSA, but hp dropped to 350. Picking up 22 ft/lbs while dropping 42 hp doesn't seem like a good trade.

If I were faced with your dilemma, I would change out the converter to a 3K stall to get me past the mushy bottom. You can pick up 22/25 ft/lbs at launch and keep all the hp you have now.
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Old 06-03-2010, 03:56 PM
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Well I called both howards and lunati today and after much consideration I decided to go with the lunati voodoo cam 60120 which lunati tech said would work good with my combo and give me good street manners and will only drop some power on top some but not much to notice and will gain some torque. Also stated it will have a good idle and will run really strong off idle clear up to 5600 rpm which is really good. Vacuum should be about the same as I got now around 16 at idle.

I know I could get a bigger stall converter which would help with the cam I currently have but when I got it I did a lot of research on it to see if it was friendly street manners and in my opinion its fair street manners but not good street manners but I guess opinions will vary on that.

Just out of curiosity techinspector what does your dyno software show with the lunati cam by chance? Thanks guys for your suggestions all is appreciated. Fbird thanks also as well.
Eric
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Old 06-03-2010, 09:24 PM
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OK, here's what you have now.
RPM HP TQ
1000 53 279
1500 98 342
2000 145 380
2500 182 383
3000 231 405
3500 287 431
4000 336 441
4500 369 431
5000 392 412
5500 377 360
6000 329 288

Here's the Lunati cam.
RPM HP TQ
1000 60 313
1500 105 336
2000 149 391
2500 185 388
3000 232 406
3500 281 421
4000 314 412
4500 338 394
5000 344 361
5500 300 286
6000 250 219

Just like I said in post 6, you can make a little more torque, but you'll have to surrender a boatload of hp to do it. Don't blame the Lunati tech guy, his job is to sell cams and tell you what you want to hear.

Last edited by techinspector1; 06-03-2010 at 09:30 PM.
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Old 06-04-2010, 04:56 PM
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Well Techinspector thanks for the heads up. Well I know some will say I made a mistake but i went ahead and ordered the lunati com to replace my crane cam. I know it makes more peak horse power and somewhat on the torque then the lunati cam but I am looking at everything here and I want a more better street cruising mild performance cam and I feel the lunati will work better since I do have to go through traffic a lot during the week.

Also do you guys believe I will still be able to run 87-89 octane like I currently do? Timing is 16 initial with 34 total mechanical by 3000 rpm. I went to keithblack website and my dynamic compression will go from 7.8 to about 8.0. I did a compression test recently and I got 160 with my current cam but I am sure I might pick up just a hair with my lunati cam with a quicker closing intake valve timing.

I am sure I will be very happy with it as I had an old stocker vortec making only 225 horse power at the most before in my s10 and it ran decent for the all stock stuff on it. Thanks again techinspector for taking your time and doing the dynosim for me. Take care guys
Eric
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Old 06-05-2010, 02:51 PM
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Well guys I got lunati grinding me a cam so all things should run better once I got it. I might loose some power but the motor will be strong and will idle better and cruise through town without giving me issues.
thanks to all who replied.
Eric
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Old 06-18-2010, 02:00 AM
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Eric wanted to know what the ZZ4 cam would look like......

All else the same, changed to ZZ4 cam with 1.5 rockers. Specs on cam are.....
208/221, 112/112/112, lift w/1.5 rockers 0.469"/0.477", timing events -8/36/42.5/-1.5
RPM HP TQ
1000 58 305
1500 103 359
2000 147 385
2500 185 389
3000 233 408
3500 284 426
4000 327 430
4500 358 418
5000 376 395
5500 347 331
6000 304 266
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Old 06-18-2010, 11:14 AM
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Hello Techinspector thanks for the info appreciated. I thought the zz4 roller cam had 474/510 lift? At least that is what they advertise for that cam
.http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-10185071/

Anyway thanks a bunch. I wonder why the lunati cam comes out with less horsepower then the zz 4 cam when the lunati has a far more aggressive opening ramp rate and more lift and is only two degrees less on the exhaust side and three more on the intake side at .50 duration.

I guess there is more then the ramp rate along with other factors for cams to making power then. From reading from various posts on other sites the lunati voodoo cams in most situations makes and average of ten more horse more power and a little more torque then the comp xtreme energy grinds and make really good power and on comp cams camquest with a comparable comp xtreme energy grind xr 264 212/218 487/495 lift it shows with putting in regular stats and not overdoing it and it shows 375 horse power at 5000 rpm and 439 ftlbs of torque at 3500 rpm.

That is with 9:1, 600cfm flow and with the flow number they have on the world product sportsman 2's, dual plane intake with standard flow and small tube headers open exhaust. I don't know how accurate it is compared to your software your using. Thanks again for your help it really helps me to learn.
Take care
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Old 06-18-2010, 02:36 PM
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Conflicting data on valve lift. Using your lift, motor picks up 2 hp, same torque.
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Old 06-18-2010, 02:39 PM
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Hello cool techinspector thanks for the heads up. I did not think that much difference in lift would make too much of a difference in power.
Take care and thanks for help.
eric
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Old 06-21-2010, 01:57 PM
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Hello Techinspector sorry to bother you again but I got my custom cam today and bullet cams made me a custom version similar to the lunati vooodoo cam and was wondering what it would show on the dyno.
260/270 212/218 @50 510/510 lift with a 106 centerline and 112 lsa.

Timing events IO 0 IC 32 EO 47 EC -9

I hope this cam spits out some decent number as its mine now to use. Thanks again for the help on the dyno simulator stuff and just wondering how close are they? Thanks again won't bug you anymore.
Eric
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