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Old 08-13-2008, 11:43 AM
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Continuation of Holley Avenger Problem

Sorry to write again but I am still in a quandry about this carb. I got the timing to set up correctly. 14* initial, 36* at 3000 RPM. When I drop the car in gear the engine almost dies and if I step on the accelerator the engine will cough, possibly backfire and then bog or quit. When I checked the vacuum at the carb with all the ports closed the idle vacuum was approximately 8 hg. At 2000 RPM it steps up to 14 hg. It seems that the carb is flooding the engine when I put it in gear. The timing doesn't drop but I thinking that the vacuum drops substantially when I put it in gear. Could it be that the power valve is to big? It has a 6.5 power valve in it now. Should a guy drop it down to 4.5 or so? Would that have any affect on the idle quality with the car in gear?

If I don't get this sorted out soon I am going to make a planter out of this carb and go get a new Edelbrock unit.

Steve

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Old 08-13-2008, 12:33 PM
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I would check the float level, if the carb is flooding, sounds like the float is not shutting off the gas after the bowl is full, and spilling into the venturi. It is not uncommon for a carb to go through the shipping system and have this adjustment knock out of spec.

I will assume that the car was running a carb before with the same fuel pump, so pressure should be fine to the carb

Last edited by pepi; 08-13-2008 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 08-13-2008, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reflog
Sorry to write again but I am still in a quandry about this carb. I got the timing to set up correctly. 14* initial, 36* at 3000 RPM. When I drop the car in gear the engine almost dies and if I step on the accelerator the engine will cough, possibly backfire and then bog or quit. When I checked the vacuum at the carb with all the ports closed the idle vacuum was approximately 8 hg. At 2000 RPM it steps up to 14 hg. It seems that the carb is flooding the engine when I put it in gear. The timing doesn't drop but I thinking that the vacuum drops substantially when I put it in gear. Could it be that the power valve is to big? It has a 6.5 power valve in it now. Should a guy drop it down to 4.5 or so? Would that have any affect on the idle quality with the car in gear?

If I don't get this sorted out soon I am going to make a planter out of this carb and go get a new Edelbrock unit.

Steve
Drop it down to a 4.5" PV and see if that helps since you do have low idle vacuum. I have about the same vacuum and use a 4.5" PV for my ride - I don't really need the extra gas from the PV until I'm really into the pedal with the secondary's open too - which is 5" or less of manifold vacuum.
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Old 08-13-2008, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sixtyninemercury
Drop it down to a 4.5" PV and see if that helps since you do have low idle vacuum. I have about the same vacuum and use a 4.5" PV for my ride - I don't really need the extra gas from the PV until I'm really into the pedal with the secondary's open too - which is 5" or less of manifold vacuum.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Right now I am trying to get a hold of a vacuum gauge that fluctuates with throttle response. The one I have is valved and holds the vacuum reading until you release it. Once I get that, I will hook up and start the car. I'll put in gear to see how far the vacuum drops. I think it is going to be considerable since the timing doesn't change at all. I do have a 4.5 hg unit that I can stick in but I want to make sure first that the vacuum is dropping that low when put into gear.

Steve
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Old 08-13-2008, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepi
I would check the float level, if the carb is flooding, sounds like the float is not shutting off the gas after the bowl is full, and spilling into the venturi. It is not uncommon for a carb to go through the shipping system and have this adjustment knock out of spec.

I will assume that the car was running a carb before with the same fuel pump, so pressure should be fine to the carb
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

I'll recheck float level but the last time I checked the secondary float was right on and the primary was a little low. That would mean a lean setup but it definitely is not lean when it sits at idle. I think it is to large a power valve and possibly to large of a shooter. Jets may be a little large also.

Steve
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Old 08-13-2008, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reflog
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

I'll recheck float level but the last time I checked the secondary float was right on and the primary was a little low. That would mean a lean setup but it definitely is not lean when it sits at idle. I think it is to large a power valve and possibly to large of a shooter. Jets may be a little large also.

Steve
But remember that the jets shouldn't affect idle characteristics.
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Old 08-13-2008, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sixtyninemercury
But remember that the jets shouldn't affect idle characteristics.
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

I understand that the jets have nothing to do with the idle on the engine. I just put a vacuum gauge on the engine and the constant vacuum at idle is 6.5 hg. With a 6.5 power valve that doesn't bode well. It is open basically all the time. When I hit the throttle the vacuum reading goes down to 4.5 hg. I am going to change that now to a 4.5 hg. Not sure that is enough. Why would the vacuum reading be so low at idle. I was getting 8.0 hg before. Maybe it is because the butterfly's are open to far in order to get it to idle correcly. I should know in the next hour or so. If I can get the idle down the vacuum at idle should go up and it should equalize. I am crossing my fingers.

Steve
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Old 08-13-2008, 03:50 PM
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Stuck the 4.5 Hg power valve in but still had a problem. It appears that the secondary float bowl is bad. I can't get it to stop overfilling. I think that the area where the "O" ring is supposed to seal off the needle and seat is to wide and allows fuel to bypass the needle. Vacuum came up to 7.0 Hg at idle. That was about where it was originally.

I am cleaning up an old float bowl off of a 3310 secondary. Hope it fits. We'll see if that cures the problem. Only other thing that I can think of is the fuel pressure is to high but that should affect the front float also. Anyone ever had a problem like this?

Steve
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Old 08-13-2008, 03:56 PM
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Sorry...the main problem is it's a street avenger. Had 3 of 'em on my 69, none would work right,each one did something different. Finally pulled an OLD 01850 off the shelf , cleaned it up & put it on...No Problem.

Don't know what it is, but i know several folks that have had similar experiences. Most went to an older Holley, some to a controlled fuel leak (edelbrock)..


just my .02
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Old 08-13-2008, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzwell
Sorry...the main problem is it's a street avenger. Had 3 of 'em on my 69, none would work right,each one did something different. Finally pulled an OLD 01850 off the shelf , cleaned it up & put it on...No Problem.

Don't know what it is, but i know several folks that have had similar experiences. Most went to an older Holley, some to a controlled fuel leak (edelbrock)..


just my .02
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

My problem seems to be the needle and seat won't block fuel from bypassing it through the "O" ring. It is the only place that fuel can get by and the needle and seat go in to easily to stop fuel flow.

Am looking for a secondary float bowl now. Will check Fleabay.

Steve
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Old 08-14-2008, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reflog
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

My problem seems to be the needle and seat won't block fuel from bypassing it through the "O" ring. It is the only place that fuel can get by and the needle and seat go in to easily to stop fuel flow.

Am looking for a secondary float bowl now. Will check Fleabay.

Steve
I use Moroso clear fuel bowl sight plugs. They have worked fine for me for many years. They haven't leaked on my carbs. After a year or so they will cloud over - no big deal for me. When I need to check the fuel level then I use a bright flashlight shining into the sight plug and I can see the fuel level just fine. Not picture perfect like the first day after installing them but I can see where the fuel level is which is what I want. Ignore the negative comments on the net about them. I have personally used them on all of my many Holley carbs. When I purchased a new Holley carb the brass screw-in plugs were replaced with clear sight plugs and weren't removed after the first day.

The reason for the clear sight plugs is because I thought that earlier you had posted that your fuel levels in both fuel bowls were good? Then you wouldn't be getting problems from your fuel bowls in regards to a fat idle. For that to happen one or both of your fuel bowls would have to be flooding - which using the clear sight plugs would give you the view to verify if that is really happening or not.
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Old 08-14-2008, 08:15 AM
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I have to say that every once in a while you get one of those parts that no matter what you do to it, something will not let it work right - ever. Mine - a (purchased brand shiny new) run-of-the mill 0-1850 4160, 600cfm Holley. I ran it, or tried to, as a replacement for the carb on my truck. It was ok, but the OEM was better. Took it off rebuilt it, put it on my rod's engine. Ho hum operation. Rebuilt it again as a 4150, changing everything but the center casting. Ran better, but was never "quite right". Changed pv's from 3.5 to 11.5, including even trying a dual stage, different squirters, secondary springs, float levels etc, etc, etc. Installed an Edelbrock 600cfm, spent a couple of hours tuning it and never looked back. The old carb - it went to Holley Heaven .



Dave W
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Old 08-14-2008, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sixtyninemercury
I use Moroso clear fuel bowl sight plugs. They have worked fine for me for many years. They haven't leaked on my carbs. After a year or so they will cloud over - no big deal for me. When I need to check the fuel level then I use a bright flashlight shining into the sight plug and I can see the fuel level just fine. Not picture perfect like the first day after installing them but I can see where the fuel level is which is what I want. Ignore the negative comments on the net about them. I have personally used them on all of my many Holley carbs. When I purchased a new Holley carb the brass screw-in plugs were replaced with clear sight plugs and weren't removed after the first day.

The reason for the clear sight plugs is because I thought that earlier you had posted that your fuel levels in both fuel bowls were good? Then you wouldn't be getting problems from your fuel bowls in regards to a fat idle. For that to happen one or both of your fuel bowls would have to be flooding - which using the clear sight plugs would give you the view to verify if that is really happening or not.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I did just as you did, I purchased the clear plastic sight plugs a long time ago. What happened was in between my posts the rear fuel bowl started to fill up past the sight plug. This occurred after I had taken the carb off and rebuilt it with new needles and seats, etc. I did not notice right away that the fuel level was so high because it filled up the whole bowl. I couldn't see the level so I kept adjusting it up thinking that it was low. Wrong!!!! Was overfilled all that time. I have tried new needles and seats, didn't work. I have looked at the fuel bowl and it seems OK in all the other aspects. Only thing I can think of is the area that seals the "O" ring is bad and allows fuel to bypass in that area.

I just ordered a new secondary float bowl from Summit. Will get a new needle and seat and go at it again when the part comes.

Steve
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Old 08-14-2008, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irelands child
I have to say that every once in a while you get one of those parts that no matter what you do to it, something will not let it work right - ever. Mine - a (purchased brand shiny new) run-of-the mill 0-1850 4160, 600cfm Holley. I ran it, or tried to, as a replacement for the carb on my truck. It was ok, but the OEM was better. Took it off rebuilt it, put it on my rod's engine. Ho hum operation. Rebuilt it again as a 4150, changing everything but the center casting. Ran better, but was never "quite right". Changed pv's from 3.5 to 11.5, including even trying a dual stage, different squirters, secondary springs, float levels etc, etc, etc. Installed an Edelbrock 600cfm, spent a couple of hours tuning it and never looked back. The old carb - it went to Holley Heaven .



Dave W
*******************************

Dave,

Holley Heaven may be where mine ends up also. If I have any more trouble with this damn thing I'll take it and use it for target practice with my .270 Winchester.

Steve
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Old 08-14-2008, 06:05 PM
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what's the CR and cam at .50 and intake on this motor????
(and do you have a open spacer on it)

what really jumped out at me is you only have 14Hg at 2,000 rpms with no load!!!!

that's plenty of intake stroke piston speed and piston air displacement at 2,000 to make alot more Hg.....
(if the rotating assembly is sealing correctly)
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