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Old 01-31-2014, 12:55 PM
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Converter problem - maybe??

Some of you know that I've been chasing what I have assumed was an engine noise. That engine is out of the car, and virtually every part had at least a cursory look. Yeah, more bearing wear then it should have with the very few miles that are on it, and it will get all new Clevites once journals are measured. BUT .... since the transmission is still in the car I gave the TCI torque converter a few spins. No clunks, but it is noisier then I recall then when it went together several years ago - kinda growling/rattles.

Question to those that know transmissions, torque converters and maybe even Ford C4s - aren't these supposed to be pretty much quiet when you 'spin' them? This is not a lockup converter with electrics and clutches so it should just be a couple sets of vanes - input then the output splined to the input of the transmission itself in really simple terms.

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Old 02-01-2014, 06:28 AM
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BUMP

WOW!! 127 'looks' and not one comment. I've really lost faith in this site, especially when there are purportedly over 100K members.

Oh well, it really doesn't matter in the scheme of life

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Old 02-01-2014, 08:32 AM
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engine noise

my 302 always had a distinkt dull knock at idel,replaced mains still the same,uped idel to about 700 no noise. was told by x ford guy that with high per. 302s that was a isue,reason for eventually changing fireing order.As i was running 289rods with pistons cut to 0 deck it fell into the problem eria. just kept the idel up never had a failure. sold the car new owner never complained. cliff
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Old 02-01-2014, 10:56 AM
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1: many of the thread views were likely the web spiders for various search engines like Bing, Google, ect

2: Rattles from a converter when spun is not good IF the converter internals are properly supported as they should be if the converter is still on the transmission
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Old 02-01-2014, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cliff tate View Post
my 302 always had a distinkt dull knock at idel,replaced mains still the same,uped idel to about 700 no noise. was told by x ford guy that with high per. 302s that was a isue,reason for eventually changing fireing order.As i was running 289rods with pistons cut to 0 deck it fell into the problem eria. just kept the idel up never had a failure. sold the car new owner never complained. cliff
Cliff - this is a 1998 built 302 HO(?) engine with the late 5.0/351W firing order so should not have that problem. I've just measured the crank, rod and main journals and every one is well within Ford's spec. Surprisingly, the bearings for as low a mileage as this engine has, to me look like they have been overloaded, especially #1 and #5 with the rod bearings showing signs of chatter on the back side of the shell (possibly from the one excursion into the way too high rpm for a stock block motor)

Crosley - I didn't think the web engines would open a thread and show it as a look without someone actually going there

That torque converter has always been a POS as far as I'm concerned as it is a TCI unit, an OEM 'upgraded' to a bit higher stall then stock to more closely match the camshaft and other engine upgrades. It's no better then the stock converter I have on my shelf. It will be replaced regardless. Do you have a favorite source for 2500 rpm converters?

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Old 02-03-2014, 12:34 PM
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For my 2 cents, there is one local company in Portland Oregon called Oregon Torque Converter that I have great faith in. I have installed several of their converters and never had an issue. They will build any converter you like, with whatever stall speed and stall rate you like. Their prices are fair for what they provide.

The converter I am running now is an Edge brand 9.5" 3,500 stall. When ordering, I was asked what cam I run and what is the peak torque RPM of my engine, what the car weighs, and what ratio rear axle gears. They also asked if I drive aggressively. I answered yes, even though I often baby the car. I would rather have it yank my head off when I nail the throttle than be mild mannered when I cruise. They built the converter according to these specifications. This is a great converter that performs perfectly for me. The best part is that, even being high stall, it doesn't feel like a slush box at light throttle. That's how the cheapo TCI's I've run before were. Like being in neutral unless your on the throttle and at or above stall speed. The Edge is a very nice unit and the price was good. Slightly less than a comparable Vigilante converter. I ordered mine through Pro Built Automatics.
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Old 02-03-2014, 12:54 PM
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Converter rattle, or noise, replace it. Oh, and I just saw this post.
I used a stock 1800 stall with mine. No problems at all.
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Old 02-03-2014, 01:29 PM
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ASE/Denny - unfortunately you are about 3 hours too late.

I just ordered a Hughes 2000 rpm stall 'verter. They seemed to have the best rep on the net of the off the shelf guys. TCI is owned by Comp Cams now, but their products are still being built in Mississippi and probably by the same folks that did the original 1800 on my engine. I think this was a generous stall number as the car did have some more creep at 900-1000 then I thought it should (that's idle speed - yes, it does have a decent cam). I almost went for the 2500 stall version but this car will never see a race track so wanted to keep good driveability without smokin' the tires at every light.

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Old 02-03-2014, 02:10 PM
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Ive heard good things about Hughes. No personal experience with their products though. Hope it works out for you.
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Old 02-05-2014, 03:23 PM
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I just received my Summit order including the Hughes converter. I rolled it across my work bench - nice and quiet. If the weather clears one of these days, it will go back together.

Now a whine - cleaning things up for fresh paint (see the engine wash thread) and latched on to the water pump. I can hardly turn the shaft!! 'Nother hundred buck order for a FlowKooler WP to replace that $tewart. Somewhere along the life of this engine it's had some water problems. It, up until last summer, always had a 50-50 mix of distilled water and Peak antifreeze. I flushed it then added some rust inhibitor along with a gallon of Prestone. The amount of sludge along with the pump steel back plate erosion is hard to believe
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Old 02-06-2014, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irelands child View Post
I just received my Summit order including the Hughes converter. I rolled it across my work bench - nice and quiet. If the weather clears one of these days, it will go back together.

Now a whine - cleaning things up for fresh paint (see the engine wash thread) and latched on to the water pump. I can hardly turn the shaft!! 'Nother hundred buck order for a FlowKooler WP to replace that $tewart. Somewhere along the life of this engine it's had some water problems. It, up until last summer, always had a 50-50 mix of distilled water and Peak antifreeze. I flushed it then added some rust inhibitor along with a gallon of Prestone. The amount of sludge along with the pump steel back plate erosion is hard to believe

Perhaps that was your noise.
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Old 02-06-2014, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by stuarta View Post
Perhaps that was your noise.
With a converter that rattles, a set of bearings that could have looked better and a water pump that barely turns - and my 'shotgun' approach to fixing everything that I've found wrong, I guess I'll never know.
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Old 02-06-2014, 09:12 AM
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Im not an automatic guy so I skipped right over this. I wouldn't have had much to add other than a noisy converter is a bad converter. I hope this all solves your problem. You may want to think about a sacrificial anode if you're seeing corrosion. You can usually find one at your local marina supply store. Re: the noise; I had a customer with a zz3 or zz4 crate engine that had a distinct noise, turned out to be piston slap due to the forged pistons and I believe they redesigned the skirt or added a coating to help with this issue as the engines were updated over time. It was quite loud, however the engine was fairly mild and had a full length hushpower exhaust. I think with the usual hot rod exhaust system, it would be less noticeable, and once the engine came up to operating temp it was fine. But, he rarely drove the car for very long and seemed to always hear it. I also think once he heard it, it may have abated and he just imagined he still heard it. Not saying this is your problem with the phantom noise, but its something to think about.
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Old 02-06-2014, 10:19 AM
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I only wish it was a phantom noise. I had the resident noise expert (my wife) stick her head down near the block at this point while I cranked it over with the ratchet seen. OH S#$%, it's still got the clunking noise - and for sure not the water pump (tho that too may have been noisy as well, but different). As far as piston slap, I was hoping it was a cracked or at least a collapsed piston skirt as then I could have justified a stroker set of innards to my savings account. I have had some big block Ford engines with forged pistons that when cold, it sound like 8 (big) marbles rolling around a 3 pound coffee can until it reached close to operating temp.



I have all new bearings, a new converter and a new water pump for the engine and will put it back together with the original 2600 mile pistons and rings. I'm also adding a PCV air-oil separator, but that's nothing to do with strange noises.

That anode - probably a good idea. I have one in the HW tank of our camper plus the house HW heater has a new one last year

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Old 02-06-2014, 11:10 AM
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Well,

Since we're playing "what if's", I'll throw in some of my totally uneducated guesses (and waste some Bandwidth at the same time) too here:

*if I am reading your last Post correctly, it looks like you have not reassembled the short block-correct? (just making sure I understand)-
*I am sure you did it, but if my last question is a yes (I haven't), did you turn it over after you took it out of the Chassis and had the Heads off to see if it still made any noises? (I realize this is a bit of an ignorant question, as I would have just disassembled it without doing this, but ya never know )-

It looks to me that you are going through a process of elimination, so what about the condition of:

*the flex plate?
*obviously the Starter wasn't installed when your better half listened, correct?

Thinking it through, I believe your Converter is the likely culprit-sounds like the Block, Crank, Rods/Pistons are still good, and, you obviously have a new Converter-I haven't heard of a front Pump making noises like you describe, so it just doesn't leave a heck of a lot to look at-I wonder if you have isolated the noise, leaving out the Transmission?

Dave, you're no dummy, so I know that you have put a lot of thought into this before asking for help, so I am assuming you have already done all of this, but I am just asking-
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