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Old 01-29-2006, 10:25 PM
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Cooling question

I have an older 350 summit motor that was great til last summer. It now starts to go from 190 to 220 if I sit idle too long. May even go higher if I keep it at idle. It had a stock Harrison 2 row radiator in it. I recently had it recored to a 4 row. Will this help my problem or is it simply a matter of air flow and will I need to try something else. I will be able to install the radiator in a week or two. I have a stock shroud on it and a 6 blade flex fan. So the setup will be the same with the addition of the recore to 4 rows. I see they have plastic shrouds that will cover the entire radiator at year one etc. Would that be better than the present metal original shroud I now have?

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Old 01-29-2006, 11:39 PM
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Their's is a bunch of factors that come into play when it comes to cooling systems;

First of all loose the 'flex fan" they rob the motor of power & don't aid in cooling like a 7 blade W/ a fan clutch.
A fan clutch slows when cooler & speeds up when warmer.

The 4 core Rad should help a lot!

What temp thermostat are you running ? Here In Fla I run 160* {my motors are NOT computerized}

How old are the hose's? if they get too old they can collapse & restrict flow

How well is the pump doing ?

Don't go with High volume water pump because it will throw the coolant through the rad too fast & not enable it to cool properly.

Stay with the stock shroud the Square to Round is the best way to go there.

If you have A/C make sure the Condenser is not clogged up restricting air flow You can check the flow with a cigarette to see if its sucking all around the dimensions of the RAD

Well That should keep you busy for a few minuets LOL

Tell me what you think

R
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Old 01-29-2006, 11:45 PM
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Thermostat is a 180. I know nothing about fan clutches so could you suggest a good one and a good fan? Also is this something I can install or is it a shop job? No A/C. Not sure on the hoses? They look good. Maybe I will replace anyway just so I know.
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Old 01-30-2006, 12:23 AM
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If your car runs cool on the road, but hot in town, your radiator core is probably OK, and your problem is insufficient airflow.

Theoretically a 4 core cools 4 times as much as a 2 core of identical tubes.

Because there is twice as much water exposed to the air and it stays for twice as long.

I would use a factory shroud and a thermostatic fan clutch/ 7 blade.

be sure the core support is sealed, and the area under the bumper to the core support, and from the core support to the hood, so that hot underhood air will not be drawn back into the front of the radiator when stopped.

edited:
You want a thermostatic fan clutch, one with the "spring" on the front side and a factory 7 blade fan. The "square to round" shroud ROB recommeded is the best. Be sure the fan blade is not too far into the shroud causing the air to blow forward from the blade tips.

I run a 195* thermostat in everything and never on any car had a problem even on 100*++ days with the AC on and idling.

Be sure your water pump has a smaller pulley than the crankshaft pulley and 50/50 antifreeze with distilled water.

Last edited by xntrik; 01-30-2006 at 12:59 AM.
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Old 01-30-2006, 04:35 AM
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Don't go with High volume water pump because it will throw the coolant through the rad too fast & not enable it to cool properly.

Actually, you want to maximize the water flow to maximize the cooling. Slowing the flow makes the radiator less efficient and it removes less heat from the engine.

Theoretically a 4 core cools 4 times as much as a 2 core of identical tubes.

A four core radiator will be less than twice as effective as a 2-core. The third and fourth rows are cooled with the warm air from the first two rows, resulting in reduced efficiency for the added rows. If the added rows were another complete radiator in series cooled with fresh air, it still would be less than twice as efficient.
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Old 01-30-2006, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Don't go with High volume water pump because it will throw the coolant through the rad too fast & not enable it to cool properly. {ROB }

Quote:
Actually, you want to maximize the water flow to maximize the cooling. Slowing the flow makes the radiator less efficient and it removes less heat from the engine.
I have to disagree here.
You've got basically a stock design{not too radical} there fore the stock pump will work fine.

The coolant has to stay in the "cooling chamber "IE" the Rad to cool if it rushes past the Rad too quickly then it has insufficient time to cool down .

The heat transference that needs to take place.

Coolant thru the tube + heat transference to the metal tubing & webbing then Air flow across the metal taking the heat AWAY from the coolant = cooler coolant for the motor to Re heat

If the coolant fly's thru the Rad then its literally returning Hot water to the motor .
& will make the motor run hotter than it needs to.

Quote:
Theoretically a 4 core cools 4 times as much as a 2 core of identical tubes.{ xntrik }
Quote:
A four core radiator will be less than twice as effective as a 2-core. The third and fourth rows are cooled with the warm air from the first two rows, resulting in reduced efficiency for the added rows. If the added rows were another complete radiator in series cooled with fresh air, it still would be less than twice as efficient.
AGAIN I have to Disagree Here .

A 4 core rad Will be like having TWO 2 core Rads lined up
Each tube is separated from each other therefor cooling air flow crosses over & in between {turbulence} the cooling tubes the heat transference from row to row is NO where close to the cooling properties of the extra tubes flowing MORE coolant& there for more heat transference

What your saying is A Identically set up 4 cylinder with the same bore & stroke & air fuel mixture will produce more power than a V-8

As far as the fan!! 7 BLADE!! Measure the Diameter of your shroud!!

Pick up one from a bone yard get one with the fan clutch so you can check to make sure the fan is straight & balanced.

You might get lucky & get a Good one the coil on the front ,there is silicone packed in there .

If the GOO comes out then its shot.
Also put it in a vice & test to see if it has side to side play that is also shot.
Sometimes the gasket on the back of the fan clutch comes out that is also shot

Make sure to get the right bolt patterns for the water pump& fan clutch there are a few different patterns

New fan clutch get the STOCK ONE!! Heavy Duty is for trucks & extreme conditions & will make the motor work HARDER & is over kill possibly making it run hotter than a stock one
Put a new thermo stat in it find a old pot & boil that sucker BEFORE you put it in Ive had Brand new ones that were bad!!

Pick up a Automotive thermometer to check when it opens

}less than $5{

I have a Hot plate & a pot in my tool box Just for this .

Replace the hoses all of them heaters & bypass too use Name brand Hoses & clamps This is repair & preventive maintenance together.

be careful on the heater core if your not farmiliar with what im saying get back to me & I will explain that!

"COOLANT" is two things anti freeze & anti boil thats why it coolant & not water try those & see what happens.


R
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Old 01-30-2006, 11:51 AM
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I have to disagree here.
You've got basically a stock design{not too radical} there fore the stock pump will work fine.
The coolant has to stay in the "cooling chamber "IE" the Rad to cool if it rushes past the Rad too quickly then it has insufficient time to cool down .
The heat transference that needs to take place.
Coolant thru the tube + heat transference to the metal tubing & webbing then Air flow across the metal taking the heat AWAY from the coolant = cooler coolant for the motor to Re heat
If the coolant fly's thru the Rad then its literally returning Hot water to the motor & will make the motor run hotter than it needs to.


This brings up the following questions:

Would slowing down the air flow have the same effect as slowing down the water?
Why do you need a lot of air flow but not much water flow?
While the water is proceeding slowly through the radiator, what is happening to the water in the block?
If I slow the water in the radiator to get cooler water on the outlet do I also get much hotter water in the engine?
Why does a thermostat open when the temperature gets hot and close when the temperature cools?
If opening the thermostat allows more water to flow through the radiator, how does the temperature go down?


The heat transfer of a typical water/air radiator is defined as

Q/t = (kA(∆t))/d

where:

Q/t = heat transferred in time t

k = thermal conductivity of the barrier, i.e. aluminum, brass, etc.

A = the area of the radiator

∆t = the difference in temperature between the water and the air

d = the thickness of the barrier

It becomes apparent that the greater the difference in temperature of the water and air, the higher the efficiency. Your car runs cooler in the winter than the summer because the cooling system is more efficient due to the greater difference in temperature across the barrier.
It also stands to reason that if your radiator is hot on one end and cold on the other, it will be less efficient than if it is hot all the way across. That means for any given period of time, more heat will be transferred from a hot radiator than a hot/cold radiator.

A common misconception of cooling systems is that you have to physically hold water in the radiator to get it to cool. Since an automotive system is a closed system, a certain portion of the total water is always present in the radiator, and for each unit that leaves, another unit arrives. For example:

My cooling system holds 5 gallons, 3 gallons in the block and 2 in the radiator. My water pump pumps 1 gallon/sec. so each gallon spends 2 seconds in the radiator and 3 seconds in the block. Over the course of an hour, this gallon will spend 24 minutes in the radiator and 36 minutes in the block.

If I double the flow rate to 2 gal/sec., each gallon will spend one second in the radiator and 1.5 seconds in the block. Over the course of an hour, this gallon will spend 24 minutes in the radiator and 36 minutes in the block, the same time as the low flow pump. The difference will be that the efficiency of the radiator will be higher due to the higher average temperature of the radiator due to the increased flow.

If you can get the radiator uniformly hot it will conduct more heat away from the engine than if it has an extreme temperature gradient.

Another consideration in cooling systems is turbulence. Studies have shown that turbulent flow will transfer 150%-500% more heat than laminar flow. There's a lot of study going on in this area with water-cooled overclocked CPU's. You can increase the turbulence by increasing the flow rate and/or by physical devices in the stream.

AGAIN I have to Disagree Here .
A 4 core rad Will be like having TWO 2 core Rads lined up
Each tube is separated from each other therefor cooling air flow crosses over & in between {turbulence} the cooling tubes the heat transference from row to row is NO where close to the cooling properties of the extra tubes flowing MORE coolant& there for more heat transference


As there is a temperature gradient on the water side of the radiator, there is also a temperature gradient on the air side. Air that passes over the first row of tubes is warmed by those tubes. It arrives at the second row of tubes less able to carry heat away, and so on with the third and fourth rows. If the air flow over the tubes is maximized, the cooling will be more effective, but you'll never get the same cooling out of the n+1 row as you did with the n row.
If you put the radiators in series, the second radiator will be less efficient simply because it is cooler.

Stewart Components has some very good information on engine cooling:

http://www.stewartcomponents.com/Tech_Tips.htm
http://www.stewartcomponents.com/tec...ech_Tips_6.htm
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Old 01-30-2006, 12:30 PM
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Rob, you have to remember that the air passing over rows three and four has been prewarmed. So at low air flow situations they can't cool as good as the first two rows. Even with optimal air flow there is a little pre-heating going on. Another thing is the size of the rows. Sometimes a two or three row will cool better than a four. It depends on the thickness of the total core. Some four rows are made to fit into the same area as a three row. They are made because they sell, they sell because people are convinced they are better. Four rows don't necessarily mean there is more area. As you mentioned there is space between rows too. So between a three and four row in the same 1.5" space, the three row will present more surface area for cooling. But if you want to buy something bad enough, I'm willing to make it for you! This worries me about the statement that the radiator was recored -- stock tanks would have been used, and the core is no thicker than the factory heavy duty three core. He may have lost a little cooling capacity by going to a four core. I hear this from rock crawling Jeepers all the time.

As far as the clutch fan, a stock fan clutch and seven blade fan should work. The clincher is that four row radiator. Even if you had it recored to four cores, chances are the tanks hung over the two rows 1/2" or so since most tanks are designed to support at least three rows. The four row core will take up that space. That might not leave room for a stock clutch and fan, but it should.

An electric fan might be a good alternative is there is no room for a clutch fan. Just make sure you have adequate air flow. Usually two are required. The best setup is to have the two staged on separate adjustable thermostats. One comes on then if the temp gets 20 degrees or so higher the second comes on. This keeps from straining the electrical circuit with a big surge all at once when both come on, and saves wear and tear on one of the fans. The thermostats can be switched later to even out wear if desired.
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Old 01-30-2006, 10:21 PM
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I should have posted this question before I got the radiator work done!! It was a 2 row Harrison and now is a 4 row with the same tanks so it is not any thicker!! Hmmm perhaps I have made a rookie mistake by not understanding all this better. I never had a problem when I was running down the road, just at idle this last summer. I will put the recored radiator in and get a 7 blade fan with a clutch and see if this solves the problem or not. If that does not work I will try a high flow pump and a new shroud that covers the entire radiator. If all that does not work then hmmmm maybe the electric with an aluminum radiator. I do race on occassion at the strip so I could use the weight loss anyway. Hopefully what I have now though will work.
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Old 01-30-2006, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onovakind67
[I]
Theoretically a 4 core cools 4 times as much as a 2 core of identical tubes.

A four core radiator will be less than twice as effective as a 2-core. The third and fourth rows are cooled with the warm air from the first two rows, resulting in reduced efficiency for the added rows. .
************************************************** *****
Please forgive me for trying to over simplify and failing to thoroughly explain.

You said..... "Less than TWICE as effective as a 2 core"

Going from 2 core to 4 core using identical tubes, there is twice as much water exposed to the air,

and it is exposed twice as long.

For example, lets say the pump is flowing 20 gallons per minute through 2 cores. That is 10 gpm per core X 2 = 20 gpm.

Make it a 4 core flowing 20 gpm and each core is passing 5 gpm X 4 = 20 gpm. 5 gpm is half as fast as 10 gpm through the identical size tube.

Twice as much water exposure and stays in the tubes twice as long. 2 X 2 = 4

Yes the air gets hotter. When that air is moving through that core at 30 miles per hour that air is not as hot as you might think. Try measuring it. Now go ahead and deduct efficiency loss due to the warmer air from core to core... certainly not your supposed 50+ % loss .... theoretically.

I have never built a car that had a heating problem.
Just my opinions. I am always willing to learn.
Thanks for reading.

Last edited by xntrik; 01-30-2006 at 11:25 PM.
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Old 01-31-2006, 12:36 PM
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You said..... "Less than TWICE as effective as a 2 core"

I certainly did, and here's the physics of it.

We are talking about efficiency, the ability of the radiator to extract heat from the water per unit of time, not about the temperature of the water at the outlet of the radiator. Newtons law of cooling postulates that the rate of heat loss is proportional to the difference in temperatures of the water and air. The hotter the radiator is, the better it works, conversely, the colder the air is, the better it works. You've probably experienced this effect first hand - your car runs cooler in the winter than it does in the summer.

Have you ever wondered how a car reaches 'operating' temperature? Why does it stop getting hotter at some point? It's because the hotter the radiator gets the more efficient it becomes, and at some point you are dissipating all the waste heat the engine can produce. It basically comes down to the difference between the air temperature and the water temperature. Hotter in the summer, cooler in the winter.

There is no division of labor in the radiator, the fins near the outlet work just the same as the fins near the inlet. If you can get the fins near the outlet hotter, they will extract more heat from the water. (rhymes, doesn't it?)

The notion that the water needs to spend a finite amount of time in the radiator has no basis in fact. Any given molecule of water spends the same average time in the radiator no matter what the flow. Cooling involves removing units of heat per unit of time, and the time the water spends in the radiator is not involved in the equation. The more heat that's in the radiator, the faster you can extract it.

A thicker radiator has more resistance to airflow than a thinner one. There will be less air flow through the 4-core than the 2-core. Less air flow means less efficiency. If I have double the tubes but less air, I won't have double the cooling efficiency. Again, the cooling air over the additional tubes is at a higher temperature, rendering the additional tubes even less efficient.

Slower velocity in the tubes means less turbulence, which means less efficiency. Lack of turbulence will drastically alter the cooling efficiency of the radiator. To quote Stewart:
In past years, hot rodders and racers would sometimes install a thicker radiator and actually notice decreased cooling. They erroneously came to the conclusion that the air could not flow adequately through the thick radiator, and therefore became fully heat-saturated before exiting the rear of the radiator core. The actual explanation for the decreased cooling was not the air flow, but the coolant flow. The older radiators used the narrow tube design with larger cross section. Coolant must flow through a radiator tube at a velocity adequate to create turbulence.

To reiterate, a 4-core radiator will not be twice as efficient as a 2-core of the same area and core dimensions. It can approach twice the efficiency, but it will never reach it.
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Old 02-06-2006, 12:41 AM
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update

Got the radiator in and filled up today! Went for a drive and seems to be o.k Won't know for sure until summer gets here.
I noticed it heats up to about 190 and then when the thermostat opens up it goes down to about 170-175 until it gets up to the 190 mark again. The thermostat is a 180 thermostat but I guess the guage could be off a little. Or maybe thats just how they work.
The radiator is the 2 row harrison that was recored to a four row. I know I could not tell that it ever got cooler before, but now I can certainly tell when the thermostat must be opening as the drop is about 15 degrees.
Went ahead and put new upper and lower hoses on it too and used 2 and 1/2 gallons of distilled water with one bottle of water wetter and about 1/4 gallon of antifreeze. I imagine there was still some water in the block from when I removed the radiator but I did not worry about draining it. All the water and antifreeze that came out when I drained it before the recore looked good so I did not worry about it.
I still have the stock metal round shroud and the 6 blade flex fan on it. I will next look to get a 7 blade fan and a thermal clutch for it as it seems people say it will free up a little horsepower for me.
Thanks for all the advice guys and I hope to see summer come and go with no more heating issues.

Perry
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Old 02-06-2006, 10:32 AM
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Great!!

Glad it seems better,

Summer will tell for sure but I dont think you;ll have the problems.

Permanent antifreeze should be mixed 50-50 for maximum effect get a anti freeze checker the ball type or the indicator will do.

I have 4 of them & multi check just to make sure the readings match up .

I do the same with air gages..
Keep us posted


R
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Old 02-06-2006, 10:01 PM
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Well I figured since it is garaged and really only sees good weather running, I would cut back a bit on the anti freeze. Good Idea on the anti freeze checkers too.
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Old 02-06-2006, 10:14 PM
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coolant is just that coolant it lowers the temp that it freezes
& raises the temp it boils .

It expands the range of water & also has anti corosion in it

You mix it 50-50 to utilize all this stuff so the anti freeze works properly

R
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