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Old 08-13-2009, 08:50 PM
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Correct Ignition advance for Supercharged SBC

I have a 350 SBC using a Weiand 142 blower and a GM vacuum-advance HEI distributor (new internals from Summit, SUM-850032). This is an 8.5:1 compression engine with 4-6 pounds of boost, decent heads and maybe some shorty headers (if I can find some that fit; they need to dump at the OEM positions to work, otherwise it's OEM cast iron)

I've read the docs from Weiand who say using a HEI is good, and while 32 degrees total advance (and all in by 2800RPM) is "best", 25 degrees results in only a small loss of power but gives a considerable reduction in detonation. But a lot of their advice seems to be "just bolt this bad boy on to your stocker and you'll be happy." And at 4-6 pounds of boost, maybe so.

I've read the KB article at http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...EI_distributor which says that a "“typical” advance curve will look something like this: 14 degrees initial advance + 20 degrees centrifugal + 16 degrees vacuum adv. = 50 degrees total ", that stock vacuum advance cans provide 22-24 degrees of advance which is " WAY WAY WAY too much" with a re-curved-as-described distributor.

I've read a Chevy High Performance article on using the same supercharger on a Goodwrench 350 states that 32 degrees total was the "sweet spot".

The Summit kit comes with three weights of springs. At 3000RPM, none are fully advanced and show about 2, 7 and 17 degrees respectively and at 5000RPm, about 20, 15 and 12 (kinda crappy graph).

The vacuum advance can is adjustable - the Allen wrench tightened fully clockwise seems to be maximum advance, but it doesn't say how much this is; retard adjustment is accomplished with two counter-clockwise turns at a time. The adjustment as it was provided was about 4 turns from full clockwise. They suggest turning it full clockwise and backing off until detonation stops; that doesn't sound like a good idea for a supercharged engine.

So I'm confused by all this.

Just what does "total advance" mean here? I'm guessing that the KB article is for normally aspirated engines and the "50 degrees total" setting is not for me; I need to stay at 25-32? Or is there some other kind of "total" I'm missing?

So I need to use the lighter springs (or maybe even lighter?) so all the centrifugal advance (20 degrees) is in by 2800RPM and some combination of static and vacuum advance not to exceed 5(!) to 12 degrees? That doesn't sound right. Or the heavy springs to never get more than 14 degrees centrifugal advance at any RPM and then 11 to 18 from the static advance and vacuum advance combined? Or some combination of springs as per the article. Maybe I'm reading the Summit chart wrong? Is the chart vacuum and centrifugal combined? A maximum advance of 20 degrees for both seems at odds with the KB article (36 degrees combined), or maybe the Summit kit is "more better" than stock? Or with a supercharged engine I won't have enough vacuum to worry about (using a boost-referenced Holley carb, BTW)? Or? Or!!?? This seems harder than long division.

I suspect I need some reasonable combination of all three types of advance to make this a streetable engine on pump gas. How do I get that?

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Old 08-13-2009, 10:32 PM
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You read too much.

Give all the details of your engine build, drive line and blower pulley drive ratio.

You need a accurate advance type timing light and accurate True verified TDC timing tab location.

For best blower performacne with moderate boost on premimum pump gas and 8.5:1 ish cr, you want total mechanical advance under boost to be 26 to 32deg.
The blower tends to want a good bit of inital advance at idle.
Especially with a high perf cam.

Most all distributors reguardless of price, type or brand etc require modification to set them up properly for best performance with a blower. excessive advance under boost must be avoided.
You cannot do this by just swapping the weights and springs alone.

you need to modify the mechanial advance stop limit in the distributor to limit the advance travel to get the required idle and max advance without excessive advance under boost.

Tell us the details. are you going to use a boost referenced timing retard box Y. N.?

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 08-13-2009 at 10:40 PM.
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Old 08-13-2009, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hduff
The Summit kit comes with three weights of springs. At 3000RPM, none are fully advanced and show about 2, 7 and 17 degrees respectively and at 5000RPm, about 20, 15 and 12 (kinda crappy graph).
This is when using the lighter-than-stock weights that are supplied w/the kit.

You will likely be using the OEM weights w/the kit springs in some combination- I personally have never liked the performance of the after market weights (center, top- the shiny ones. Ones at top are for HEI, the ones below are for points-type distributors).

The OEM weights (and just as importantly, the cams that operate the weights- seen on the right, in the image w/the weights) have MANY variations. If you don't happen to have a couple dozen sets to work with, you may need to hunt some up from the 'yards, or where ever- or possibly modify the existing ones, if they need it- in order to give the curve that is desired.

Be aware that you can't always go by the wear marks for the proper orientation of the weights and cams- CW and CCW rotation distributors will have the wear marks on opposite sides of the cams and weights, so put them in correctly for the CW rotation of a SBC.
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Old 08-14-2009, 05:14 AM
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I do read a lot, but it would be better if things were written more clearly and the author would lay a foundation for their advice and not assume that the reader knows enough to fill in all the big gaps they leave. They write like those cars shows on TV where they say "Next we drop the pistons into the block, bolt on the heads and after tightening a few hose clamps, get 872 HP on the dyno. We'll be back with a complete 5-minute Turbo 350 overhaul after the break. Stick around!"

So I read and ask questions. Then I go do it and check my work. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

I love synchronicity.

I just received the September 2009 Goodguys Gazette and beginning on page 184 is a better-written article on ignition timing. The specific advice Henry P. Olsen provides is that a supercharged engine with 6 pounds of boost needs 18-20 degrees of initial advance with 30 degrees all-in by 2800 RPM. He does not recommend that any vacuum advance be used. And I think I can figure out why (vacuum advance is useful to more efficiently burn the leaner mixture during cruising conditions, but a supercharged engine with extra advance at that condition will promote detonation), but he doesn't really say why. (BTW, he comments that the 50+ degrees the KB info relates to is for the "days of leaded gasoline"; should be more like 46-50 nowadays).

Given that and given the comments from you guys - thank you -, I need the distributor to provide only 10 degrees of mechanical advance, all-in at 2800RPM and I should cap off the vacuum advance.

It would be best if I can find someone with a test stand to experiment with the weights and springs more easily; I do have a dial-back timing light for testing in the car.

Again, thanks. Most of the parts for the engine have arrived and I should get the balanced rotating assembly back next week. If you want to see the car the engine will go in, look at the overheating car picture, page 51, StreetRodder Magazine, October 2009 issue.
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Old 08-14-2009, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
You read too much.

Give all the details of your engine build, drive line and blower pulley drive ratio.


Tell us the details. are you going to use a boost referenced timing retard box Y. N.?
Forgot to answer you on this.

350 SBC, standard bore, 8.5:1 compressions ratio. Wieand 142 supercharger with 4-6 pound boost pulley; Holley boost-referenced carb; Holley 110GPM mechanical fuel pump; GM HEI dist.; 700R4 transmission; 3.27:1 forget-where-it-came-from MOPAR will-eventually-be-replaced-during-the-eventual-frame-replacement (probably sooner than I want) diff. COMP spec'd a cam; don't have the number handy here at home, but I'll post it later today when I'm at the shop and get the head casting numbers. I am deliberating over adding hyperutectic pistons with a reverse dome instead of the OEM dished pistons, but probably not. Like I said before, not an engine that will be raced or run hard, just driven - I seem to put 5-7000 miles a year on these cars; that's slightly more than my daily driver. I'm learning a lot (too much actually) just by keeping them on the road and having way too much fun doing it.
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Old 08-14-2009, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hduff
"Next we drop the pistons into the block, bolt on the heads and after tightening a few hose clamps, get 872 HP on the dyno. We'll be back with a complete 5-minute Turbo 350 overhaul after the break. Stick around!"
LOL, I think I saw that show!!
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Old 08-14-2009, 01:55 PM
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I just received the September 2009 Goodguys Gazette and beginning on page 184 is a better-written article on ignition timing. The specific advice Henry P. Olsen provides is that a supercharged engine with 6 pounds of boost needs 18-20 degrees of initial advance with 30 degrees all-in by 2800 RPM. He does not recommend that any vacuum advance be used. And I think I can figure out why (vacuum advance is useful to more efficiently burn the leaner mixture during cruising conditions, but a supercharged engine with extra advance at that condition will promote detonation), but he doesn't really say why. (BTW, he comments that the 50+ degrees the KB info relates to is for the "days of leaded gasoline"; should be more like 46-50 nowadays).

Given that and given the comments from you guys - thank you -, I need the distributor to provide only 10 degrees of mechanical advance, all-in at 2800RPM and I should cap off the vacuum advance.


Now you are reading relevent stuff to a supercharged motor.
Sounds pretty close. Can nail it down better for you with the cam specs.
After the mechanical advance is all dialed in and tested out for the motor,
Street driving and fine tuning, the vacuum advance can be employed and fine tuned to work correctly with the blower too. Sourced off the blower manifold and set up to come in and drop off properly with the manifold vaccuum and boost and like you said physically limited to around 8-10deg or so.
You need once that is both adjustable (rate in and out) and one that can be physically travel limited to limit vaccuum timing.
Adds efficiently as the motor transitions from part throttle low speed idle and cruise with manifold vacuum (no boost) thru further throttle input, dropping timing as man vac drops and boost comes in. Much like a boost retard setup. So that once you at at full thottle and the boost is comming in, timing is around 26 to 30deg.

This combo of modified and limited mechanical+ modified and limited vacuum advance won't be as good as a system with the above + electronic controled boost retard is , but its close.

The stock pistons will handle 6 psi boost but detonation and fuel leanout under boost must be avoided. (you will need a 500hp capable fuel delivery system)
Good gas, moderate safe timing under boost with correct timing transition, correct slightly rich full throttle jetting.
The KB hypers are stronger than stock for sure and will handle more boost but still the motor must stay out of detonation. They need big big top ring end gaps for supercharged application too. (follow KB directions)
If you stay witin these parameters, the hypers will live.

KB has resonably priced, reported to be very good forged pistons too.

A water/methanol injection system allows more boost and or timing (little or no power robbing boost retard) resulting in much more safe/reliable power on premimum pump gas. Really supresses the detonation under boost.
allows you to crank up the boost and put the timing back in without busting stuff.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 08-14-2009 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 08-14-2009, 02:10 PM
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If you are going to change the piston, why not be safer and go with forged. They will tolerate a little more detonation and are overall much stronger. If you do go forged you should have the rotating assy balanced as they tend to be a bit heavier and balancing becomes more important. I have basically the same engine and blower as you and I broke my hyper pistons. I installed some Speed Pro forged 8:1's when I rebult it.
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Old 08-14-2009, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88

Now you are reading relevent stuff to a supercharged motor.
Sounds pretty close. Can nail it down better for you with the cam specs.
Thanks for all your advice on this project. I'm hoping I'm learning enough for a smoother process when I rebuild the 454 BBC and the 360 Mopar that are in line for work.

The cam is a COMP CS Xe262H-14 flat tappet hydraulic lifter
Gross valve Lift I/E .464 .470
Duration@.006 Tappet Lift I/E 262 270
Valve Timing @.006
Intake Open: 19
Exh Open: 70
BTDC Close 62 ABCD
BBDC 19 ATDC

For cam installed @ 110.o Intake Center Line
Duration @ .050 I/E 218 224
Lobe Lift I/E .3090 .3130
Lobe Separation 114.0

I purchased the "kit" including lifters, springs and cam gears/chain; using roller-tip rockers per their recommendation.

And as for the rest:

The block checked out OK and I can use standard sizes for all bearings. I was surprised that it is a 4-bolt main. Using all ARP bolts to put it back together.

The heads are 441 castings with stainless valves and COMP springs, ported and gasket matched.

I've cleaned and smoothed the lifter valley of the lock and de-burred the block; smoothed the oil-return hole in the rear crank cap; drilled a tiny hole in the center front galley plug to improve oiling to the cam chain; checked clearances in the oil pump and installed a "more better" spring.

The rotating assembly will be balanced.

I need to shim the bottom of the distributor to reduce the end play to less than .020 and I found a guy with a distributor testing machine.

You've recommended a 3/8" fuel line 3/8" in/out paper element in line fuel filter and a Carter #P4070 (6psi) or P4594 (7-8psi) electric fuel pump [rated at 72GPH]. Would the Holley 120834 80GPH/7.5psi or 12-327-11 110GPM/8psi mechanical pump work just as well?
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Old 08-14-2009, 06:53 PM
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in this application:
I highly recomend the electric fuel pump(s) over the mechanical.
Heat soak/fuel perculation/vapourlock issues. (inconsistant fuel flow under harsh high heat conditions) You must avoid fuel starvation at WOT under all conditions.
You must build a bullet proof fuel system.
The single carter electric pump+ 3/8" fuel line is great for up to 450-460hp with some capacity to spare.
its simple and cost effective.
500+hp requires that you either double up on the pumps, pick ups and fuel lines (twin parralel systems (still very simple, reliable and cost effective) or go with a full race 1/2" system with 110+GPH big electric and regulator.
The carter pumps are very cost friendly, reliable and very reasonable on the noise level when properly rubber mounted. make your own mounting bracket. Very Easy to get a new one at the local NAPA if one should crap out on ya for some reason.
(These carter pumps are designed for full time street use duty and tend to outlast the car).
Uses easily replaceable common inline 3/8" fuel filters.
On a twinned carter pump parrellel system (500++hp capacity) you can even wire it up and plumb it to run 1 pump only for cruising and have the 2nd pump kick on for WOT.

The cam is pretty mild. The one pump system done correctly should be enough to feed this motor at 4-6psi boost WOT.
I flow test verify mine on the car so I know exactly how much GPH I'm getting at what voltage and what PSI throu the carb needle and seats or equal flow test orifice.

you will have to establish for yourself what this motor wants for best idle timing, (12 to 18deg range) (can be all mechanical or a combo of inital+ vaccuum advance) (the vacuum advance must be sourced off the manifold below the blower), best WOT full boost WOT timing (26 to 32deg).
and best amount and rate of vacuum advance. 8-15deg max Do not forget to phisicaly limit the vac adv travel. (You do not want a over-advance condition under any driveing mode transitions.)
then fill in the timing curve rate, best overall for your car. (full mechanical advance @2800-3500rpm)
It will all fall together within these guide lines and limits.
I like to establish these timing parameters by working first with a temperailly locked out distributor to find best power timing under boost, then best idle timing, then set up the curve rates and fill in the spaces.
Its real easy to temp lock out a HEI advance and then reverse restore it again.
This ones not that hard to do.

just remember, easy on the WOT timing on pump gas. and don;t starve it for fuel. Put good gas in it always.
use some Champion RV8C or AC R42T plugs for your 441 heads and the blower.
The increased combined internal volume of the combined intake manifold and supercharger require a bigger volume of carb pump shot. Sometimes a 50cc accel pump is required to get enough pump shot volume when you punch it from idle. If its not enough of a pump shot, it will spit back at you when you rug it from idle.
(especaily if the blower case is cold) let it warm up.
Generous inital spark timing helps too.
A stock th700r4 torque converter sucks.
Get a $$quality$$$ high stall converter with full lock up function so it launches "on the boost" when you rug it.
I'm not big on th700r4's.
When the blower motor eats yours, you know what to do.
Witha 3.27:1 gear you don't need overdrive.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 08-14-2009 at 07:18 PM.
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Old 08-14-2009, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
The increased combined internal volume of the combined intake manifold and supercharger require a bigger volume of carb pump shot. Sometimes a 50cc accel pump is required to get enough pump shot volume when you punch it from idle. If its not enough of a pump shot, it will spit back at you when you rug it from idle (especaily if the blower case is cold) let it warm up.
Generous inital spark timing helps too.
The carb is the boost-referenced Holley 4150 that Weiand specs with the blower kit
QUOTE]
A stock th700r4 torque converter sucks.
[/QUOTE]
It's been re-built by the guy at the local Allison service center who is also a car enthusiast so it has all the goodies.

The rear end needs to get replaced. It's from some mid-80's Mopar, When I do that, I'll go with something stouter and suss out the bet gear ration for the engine, trans, and tire combo.

I'm only doing this engine now because the old engine broke and I want to get the car back on the road. I coulda passed on the blower, but it's been sitting in the box for 4 years begging to be used . . .
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Old 08-14-2009, 07:40 PM
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Good stuff Good luck to ya on your project.
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Old 08-14-2009, 08:16 PM
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Thanks for all your advice and thanks to the other fellows as well.

I haven't built a car from the ground up yet, but I've been re-building three that were built by somebody else and have learned a lot in the process (and there's plenty of good stuff there along with the screw-it-I-just-wanna-be-done stuff). And I enjoy driving 'em. A lot.

Other than a few Volkswagen and Triumph motors, this is my first attempt at American iron. It's a lot more complicated than I first thought because there are so many choices to make and things are so interrelated, not just with the engine, but the entire car. Fascinating stuff and lots of fun.
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Old 09-04-2009, 05:10 PM
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Be careful with those KB pistons! Because they are hyperutectic AND they are cast; they expand very little. In fact, far less than stock. The machine shop knows this and may fit them too tight. KB even recommends 1/2 thousandths (yep, 0.0005") for a stock application. Even though there is a slight increase in strength the real reason for a hypereutetic is the low expansion rate. So for a blown application you better let the shop know it and crank in more clearance! I don't know how much because I wouldn't use them in a blown application. Also, the pin location is "dead nuts" in the center and not offset to the thrust side. They can get away with this in a stock situation because they are fitted so tight. However, if you loosen up the clearance you will get piston slap on start-up. Even with a hot motor you still might get slap because of their very low expansion rate. Depending on many variables "slap" can lead to broken skirts. You haven't balanced the motor yet. And because they are low cost you might want to consider another alternative. They are great pistons for a stock re-build (considering cost and function). If you don't plan a hard life for the motor you may be ok. Talk to the machine shop about my response and then decide. Thanks to all the posts above . . .good stuff.
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Old 09-04-2009, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saltfever
Be careful with those KB pistons! Because they are hyperutectic AND they are cast; they expand very little.
Thanks. I'm going with the stock pistons, running low boost and not intending to push the engine hard.

Every choice not only has its own unique requirements plus it affects other choices. And there are lots of different combinations that essentially accomplish the same end result. For the first-timer, it's a minefield and I very much appreciate all the advice I get here.
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