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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2007, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cboy
Doc,

Which line do you think is mis-printed? Is it the main heading "OPEN CIRCUIT SWITCH" or is it the parameter for the green wire testing?
That is hard to say without looking at the whole schematic, but I'd bet it was the second parameter..

Quote:
Originally Posted by cboy
You may have found a problem totally separate from the one that is causing my confusion.

Let my trying asking the question a bit differently.

When the manual says "Closed Circuit Switch", what circuit/switch are they talking about? Is it the main circuit (ignition and cruise on/off switch) or is it, for example, the SET/COAST, green wire, sub-circuit?
The way I read it..They mean (or intended to mean..) (ignition/on..cruise switch/on..)

BTW: To add to your confusion..

That may have been the source of your microvolt leak if it was malfunctioning, IIRC, The Cruise disconnect goes through the brake lamp circuit..IF it had a Leakey (slightly reverse biasing ) Transistor, that would put a microvolt load on the lamps, that would not normally effect a regular lamp, BUT would have no problem lighting an LED...

Are we really confused now??

Doc

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Old 06-29-2007, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docvette
Are we really confused now??
Very. But that's the normal state of events around MY garage.

The new cruise was just delivered by UPS so I replaced the servo only...left all the original wiring. A quick road test failed to engage the unit (power light comes on but it won't "set" when I press the set button. So now I'm on my way out to start testing the wires per the troubleshooting manual. I have no idea what I'm doing when I test those green and yellow wires since based on the parameters I'm bound to get a errant result on one or the other of the two parameters.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2007, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cboy
Very. But that's the normal state of events around MY garage.

The new cruise was just delivered by UPS so I replaced the servo only...left all the original wiring. A quick road test failed to engage the unit (power light comes on but it won't "set" when I press the set button. So now I'm on my way out to start testing the wires per the troubleshooting manual. I have no idea what I'm doing when I test those green and yellow wires since based on the parameters I'm bound to get a errant result on one or the other of the two parameters.

Doc here,

TRY it like the book says first..IF the readings don't conform..Assume parameter #2 is backward..and compare against that..I think it might make sense then, if it does.

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Old 06-29-2007, 09:29 PM
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I ran the series of voltage tests for all the cruise wires (eight altogether).

Regarding the green (8) wire and yellow (6) wire which started this thread because of the way the troubleshooting manual said to test them...I think they both tested properly.

With the ignition on and the cruise main switch on, the GREEN wire showed 12 volts when the SET/COAST was pressed and 0 volts when it was released.

With the ignition on and the cruise main switch on, the YELLOW wire showed 12 volts when the RESUME/ACCEL was pressed and 0 volts when it was released.

That falls under the expected test results with the OPEN CIRCUIT SWITCH.

I'm simply disregarding the CLOSED CIRCUIT SWITCH portion of the test because I have no idea what it means or what I would do to conduct the test and differently than what I did above.

The other wires tested according to the parameters with two exceptions. My ground wire, which is supposed to show continuity with ground at all times, tested .02 instead of a perfect continuity of 0. I don't believe this would cause the cruise to malfunction but if others think it is a problem, speak up.

The wire that I think might be the culprit is the purple (4) wire which is the signal from the brake switch which disengages the cruise. This wire is supposed to test 12 volts when the brake is depressed and 0 volts when the brake is released. I does show 12 volts when depressed but when released I still get a reading of 0.03 volts (29 mV on the 200mV scale).

This would tend to support earlier conjecture that my lit LED tail lights and my
malfunctioning cruise control were related.

But now the question is, how is that juice getting into that particular wire? Based on the other thread where we discussed the lit LED's, I've pulled the fuse for the hazard/brake lights and the fuse for the turn signals. I've also pulled the flasher modules for the turn signals and the hazards and I've disconnected the wires at the LED's and the wire at the exit (cold) side of the brake switch and I've disconnected the wiring module from the cruise control. (This eliminates a number of potential culprits that have been suggested.) At that point I still got a reading of 27 mV (on 200 mV scale) at the brake switch cold side wire (disconnected from the switch). BTW, the purple wire on the cruise which tested bad is tapped into this cold side brake switch wire.

This cold side brake wire runs to a wiring harness at the steering column and then up the column to the turn signal and hazard switch on the column (along with whatever other connections it might make up there). When I pull apart the wiring harness I now get a 0 mV reading at the brake switch cold side wire and also a 0mV reading at the other end of that same wire at the steering column wiring harness.

If anybody is still following along, I next tested all the wires on steering column side of the disconnected harness. As expected, these all test 0.

I then tested all the wired on the incoming side of the disconnected steering column wiring harness. There is one wire which tested 12 volts but it doesn't connect to a pin on the other side of the harness. I would have thought this was the horn wire...but I guess not.

Two other wires, the left and right rear turn signal wires tested about 10 mV each (on 200 mV scale). All the other wires were either 0 or 1-2 mV. Keep in mind, the left and right rear turn signal wires are disconnected at the LED's. Interestingly, when I test the brake/turn signal wire at the rear tail lights (disconnected from the LEDs) the right one gets a reading of 24 mV and the left one gets a reading of 4 mV.

I've tried to follow those two turn signal wires as best I can and it appears (although the wires are wrapped and they do duck into some spots that I can't see) that they are just two straight runs of wire directly from the incoming side of the wiring harness to the rear tail lights. So how I'm getting these small voltage readings at each end of the wires is beyond me. And on top of that, the only other wire they are wrapped with is the tail light wire and that gets a reading of 0 at the LED.

So if anyone has any ideas...fire away. I'm baffled. I'm getting voltage from two wires that aren't connected to ANYTHING.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2007, 11:48 PM
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Doc here,

First, without all the documentation in front of me..your troubleshoot is hard to follow , BUT sounds logical to me..

The first thing to do, is go back to that ground..Take your meter, and Calibrate it on Ohms scale, Short the probes together, on R X 1, for "000" This takes the resistance Factor out of the probes..

IF you do that and Still get 0.2 ohms to ground, try some fresh battery's in the meter..IF you STILL get the 0.2 reading, Burnish the metal bare, Install a star washer, a lock washer, and Tech screw..

IF you Still get a 0.2..run a ground wire DIRECT to the battery..(and consider a ground buss install, you may have different potentials Throughout the body/frame/engine which will come back on you later..)

NEXT , I believe the Cruise control MAY NOT be compatible with LED tail/Brake lamps..OR it has a MAJOR malfunction..( this is more likely) Sooo, your faced with two choices..Pull the CC completely out..box it up and send it back defective..OR you Could get a DUEL brake lamp switch..Which , other than leakage, IF the CC will work, MAY solve ALL the problems.

The Duel brake lamp switch would be identical to a single switch EXCEPT it has Four sets of contacts..two for Brake lamps (Hot and Lamps) and Two for Cruise Control (hot and disconnect) Both would be isolated circuits from one another..

IF you can't find a Duel brake lamp switch for your application, you Can use a relay and achieve the same result..

Just from what you have posted, and without seeing the schematic, This is what I think is what may be happening..There is a BAD transistor or Linear OP amp in the cruise control that has a minor reverse bias leakage (small amount of voltage/current at the base of the semiconductor) that shouldn't be there.
Akin to one bad diode on an alternator..it still charges, but goes dead over night because it (the bad diode) has a reverse bias and imposes a load on the battery just sitting..

NOW, in a normal setup (incandescent lamps) that voltage/current would not effect a thing..because it couldn't be used as a source of power to another circuit..In your case, it IS using current because the LED only asks for a Very small amount of current to operate..OK, This in turn starts a "Chain" , that may be ENOUGH current to forward bias the gate on the semiconductor in the cruise control Brake lamp connection (the Disconnect part of the CC Circuit) and the CC THINKS the brakes are on..(because the lights are on..) and automatically disconnects the CC from engaging..Hence..it doesn't work when switched on..

Do you Follow the logic path? Hope so..

Anyway, I think the Cure is a duel Isolated Brakelamp switch (or relay if not doable) second only to sending the CC unit back defective and trying another..(and this may not be the cure..that small voltage may be typical on all their units..)

Doc
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2007, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docvette
First, without all the documentation in front of me..your troubleshoot is hard to follow
That's why I provided a link to the manual with the troubleshooting page in one of the early posts...but then I can understand folks not wanting to wade through all that.

Quote:
NEXT , I believe the Cruise control MAY NOT be compatible with LED tail/Brake lamps..OR it has a MAJOR malfunction...
I think I've got to disagree (I can't believe I'm disagreeing with Doc on an electrical matter). Regarding a malfunction, I've tested two servo/computer chips and they both reacted the same way (failure to engage at speed). On the matter of incompatibility I must also disagree because, as noted in my last post, the cruise was totally disconnected from the electrical system at the time I tested the wiring and isolating the stray voltage in the rear brake light wiring. Since I'm getting this stray voltage reading when the cruise is out of the system I don't understand how it could be the cause of the voltage.

Quote:
...OR you Could get a DUEL brake lamp switch..Which , other than leakage, IF the CC will work, MAY solve ALL the problems.
As usual, I think Doc has come up with the solution (in spite of the fact I might disagree on the root cause). But instead of a duel brake lamp switch why couldn't I simply install a second normal brake switch JUST to operate the cruise control. These are cheap and readily available (in fact I've probably got a couple of them somewhere in one of my parts bins). It's certainly a lot easier that trying to replace the wiring to the rear brake lights.

It would still me interesting to find out how that stray voltage is getting into the system...but I think I'll try the second brake switch idea out right away and make sure I can get the cruise functioning properly.

Thanks Doc (and all others who responded). I realize there was a lot of crap to wade through on this thread...but I felt I had to include a lot of it so that we could zero in on the problem.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2007, 07:42 AM
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Well the only thing I am sure @ this point is this is complex.

I have a few ideas

1. Definitely add /reinforce your grounds if you have to run one right to the battery

2. Try checking the brake light switch .
~? is it compatible with LED's{I know they act weirdly}

3. Try adding a temporary light on the tail lamps {1157} to see if the Cruise unit responds to the incandescent bulbs.

4. If you are getting juice from some where that its not supposed to follow that! it might be a short somewhere causing the back fire that is screwing the works.

5. Also take a break. & "ZOOM OUT" & check all the stoOopid things fuses /breakers, connections ,yadda yadda, sometimes its the most silly Lil thing that will set your head on fire & your arses a catchin'.

The problem is right there we just have to be smarter than the wires

I could not find the schematic ill try again.



R
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2007, 07:45 AM
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Have you checked the magnet on the drive shaft to see if it still there?





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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2007, 07:50 AM
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This is the best I could find as far as a scematic.








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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2007, 08:40 AM
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Bummer. I thought we were really onto something with this separate brake switch idea. But before I went to the trouble of buying/installing a second switch I thought I'd test the theory to make absolutely certain the voltage reading on that purple wire (from the brake switch to the cruise) was, indeed my problem. (Assumption being the stay voltage in the brake wire was always telling the cruise to shut off.)

What I did was simply clip that wire off completely from the cruise control. I then road tested the cruise figuring I would use the cruise ON/OFF switch to disengage the cruise when it kicked in. But it STILL did not engage. The cruise switch LED comes on showing I have power to the cruise but when I press the set/coast switch, nothing happens. I double checked and I DO have 12 volts to the set/coast switch when it is pressed. So the problem must lie elsewhere.

I don't think it is a ground problem because my cruise switch LED shows I have power through the switch to ground when I turn it on.

Also, I don't use the magnet system, so the magnet could not be missing. I run the cruise off the electronic sending unit for the speedo. This has worked flawlessly for the past 20K miles. However, my next step is to redo the wiring connections to this sending unit just to make sure they haven't corroded or broken. I may also replace the wire to the coil just to make sure it is sending an accurate signal. It showed a signal during testing but seemed to jump around a bit erratically.

Assuming none of those things make a difference...it's back to the drawing board.
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Old 06-30-2007, 11:57 AM
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Totally replaced the wire from the coil to the cruise and also redid the wiring connections at the speedo sensing unit. Double checked to insure I had proper vacumn. Cleaned and reset the ground wire.

Test run = no change. Cruise still won't engage. Some days I just hate cars.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2007, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cboy
Some days I just hate cars.

Now take that back!

I was thinking this was a new installation.

I'm not sure if the LED is a good source for confirmation of ground that is simply out of my knowledge.

You know it could still be the servo. I know when the one went in my BURB it 2 more replacements just to get a good one & then it went after a month.

Good ole Car Quest.


I'm Pulling for ya, We are all in this together.




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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2007, 03:50 PM
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Doc here,

I was under the impression this was a new install also..

I Still think you have a bad CC module..a semiconductor that s "just on the edge" of being good or bad..

Think about it..

You have isolated all the other circuits from around it, The inputs are good, and it still won't engage..This tells me the module is NOT functioning.

Where is the RED #3 wire connected on your Vehicle? and was it disconnected for testing as well?

Doc
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Old 06-30-2007, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docvette
I Still think you have a bad CC module..a semiconductor that s "just on the edge" of being good or bad...You have isolated all the other circuits from around it, The inputs are good, and it still won't engage..This tells me the module is NOT functioning.

Where is the RED #3 wire connected on your Vehicle? and was it disconnected for testing as well?
Last first. The RED wire is connected to the hot side of the brake switch. It tests 12 volts all the time. It has basically been connected throughout all the testing on the CC since that is the source of power to the unit. I WAS connected during the prior testing of the lit LED lights...but the wiring harness to the servo itself was disconnected...so the servo was out of the loop.

Regarding the bad CC...this is, in fact, partially a new install. The existing cruise went out on me last week and when I couldn't remedy the problem right away I ordered a new one...exact same model etc. When it arrived I installed the new servo in place of the old servo but used all the old existing wiring harness and connections figuring this would indicate if the old servo was bad. I just have a hard time believing the brand new servo is bad in exactly the same way as the old unit...assuming the old unit is bad in the first place.

Can I possibly test the servo itself? What if I cut the wire from the "set/coast" switch and then put my tester between the two cut ends to check for amps (or possibly voltage)? Wouldn't this tell me if the servo is completing the circuit internally?

Let me also add this (which more or less reinforces your bad servo conclusion). Even though the speedo is working fine I thought there might possibly be a problem with that electrical sending unit (even though it has run the cruise fine for 20K miles). Just to test, however, I installed the magnets on the drive shaft, disconnected from the speedo sending unit and connected the appropriate wiring to the magnet sensor (and also made the appropriate changes on the dip switches in the servo). Nothing. Still would not engage during road testing.

At this point, I'd really like some hints on how I might test the servo unit...rather than just sending it back (Amazon.Com) and hoping for a good one next time around.
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Old 06-30-2007, 08:48 PM
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OK we are NOT working on a HONDA right?

{know what honda stands for? Hop On Nuthin' Dumb Arse}

A n y w a y


Quote:
The wire that I think might be the culprit is the purple (4) wire which is the signal from the brake switch which disengages the cruise. This wire is supposed to test 12 volts when the brake is depressed and 0 volts when the brake is released. I does show 12 volts when depressed but when released I still get a reading of 0.03 volts (29 mV on the 200mV scale).
Have you still gotten the same result from this test in post#19?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Quote:
I think I've got to disagree (I can't believe I'm disagreeing with Doc on an electrical matter). Regarding a malfunction, I've tested two servo/computer chips and they both reacted the same way (failure to engage at speed).
If both servos are testing the same how to you know what a good one test at?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This "DIP" switch have you checked that thing to make sure its making the proper connections & it has not changed form where its suposed to be?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
in post #25 you say you cut the purple wire off in the manual it states all wires must be hooked up for it to work correctly or @ all.

Aslo I would try getting the " main power"Directly from the battery Positive & Negative to the ground

Then trace each other wire until you are sure its doing its thing right.

If you did /do all that then its got to be the servo or one of the perephials

I remember reading


Quote:
An integral part of the cruise is the 'over rev.' protection circuit. It's function is to monitor engine R.P.M. and
disengage the cruise control when the clutch is applied or the transmission shift lever is moved in to neutral.
When a sudden rise in R.P.M. is detected, the decision to disengage is made for 'over rev' protection, the blue
wire must be attached to the negative side of the ignition coil. A noise suppressor 'in series' with the blue wire
keeps excessive electrical noise from "fooling" the cruise into disengaging. For this reason make sure all cruise
control wiring is at least 1 ft. away from all electromagnetic sources such as: ignition wires, alternator, regulator,
and all high current carrying conductors.
This I think is the tricky part that is messing or "fooling" with you.





R
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