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Cruise Control Compatibility with LED's?

9K views 44 replies 9 participants last post by  35terraplane 
#1 ·
My cruise control (Audiovox CCS100) went south the day we left for "Back to the 50's." I just pulled out the manual today and the trouble shooting section says to test two of the wires with an "open circuit switch" and also with a "closed circuit switch". I'm not sure what this means and the manual gives no additional clues. The voltage meter readings are supposed to be different depending on if it's an open circuit or closed circuit.

If it would help to see what I'm referring to the manual is located here http://www.audiovox.com/webapp/wcs/...0001&storeId=10001&productId=341067&langId=-1
Click on "find a manual" and the pdf file will open up. Troubleshooting is on page 13.
 
#4 ·
Rob Keller said:
A open circut is the switch off
A closed circut is the switch on.
Well, that's what I though too but here is what the manual says:

*******************

"To test the Green and Yellow wires, the Ignition Switch and Cruise Control Switch must both be turned on and left ON.

OPEN CIRCUIT SWITCH

8 Green + 12 VDC when the SET / COAST switch is pressed.
0 VDC when the SET / COAST switch is released.

6 Yellow + 12 VDC when the RESUME / ACCEL switch is pressed.
0 VDC when the RESUME / ACCEL switch is released.

CLOSED CIRCUIT SWITCH

8 Green 0 VDC when the SET / COAST switch is pressed.
+12 VDC when the SET / COAST switch is released.

6 Yellow + 12 VDC when the RESUME / ACCEL switch is pressed.
0 VDC when the RESUME / ACCEL switch is released"

***************************

I don't see the difference between what they call an "open circuit" and a "closed circuit" test. In each case you simply turn the switch for that wire on and test and then you turn the switch off and test. And note in the intro section to these test that it says the ignition and main power must be turned on AND LEFT ON during both tests.
 
#6 ·
wildman1932 said:
Open circuit switch means that it operates in the ( normally open) position, when in use. In other words, the voltage will not go through ( it is open ) when in operation. closed is the opposite.
I understand that open has no current going through it and closed does have current...but I don't understand what the difference is between the two tests indicated in the troubleshooting manual (see prior post with quote). Am I not reading those test procedures correctly? In both tests (for open circuit and closed circuit) the ignition is ON, the cruise main switch is ON, and the two wires/switches being tested are turned on for the first test and off for the second. Yet the results of the test are supposed to be opposite (one should show 12 volts and the other should show 0 volts).
 
#7 ·
I don't see the difference between what they call an "open circuit" and a "closed circuit" test. In each case you simply turn the switch for that wire on and test and then you turn the switch off and test. And note in the intro section to these test that it says the ignition and main power must be turned on AND LEFT ON during both tests.
All they mean is the key must be on{not necessarily running} & the switch for the cruise must be in the on position.

Let me see if I can simplify this

{Yea me simplify :D }

When you have a electrical problem 99% of the time it is a open circuit now just because I said open doesn't mean the switch is turned off, it might be a broken wire a bad connection @ a plug or a resistor or diode or them other things in the system basically electric flows like water in a pipe.
there has to be enuf volume & Pressure to make the water flow.
same with Electric there has to be enuf voltage amperes & continuity for it to work.

So when they {who ever "they" are} say...


CLOSED CIRCUIT SWITCH
8 Green 0 VDC when the SET / COAST switch is pressed.
+12 VDC when the SET / COAST switch is released
They are saying that the switch is the "on" position & that the #8 wire [green] should be @ 0 {zero} VDC {Volts Direct Current} then when you press the switch it activates the electronics inside the computer & then should go to 12+ VDC. when you let off thus said switch {most likely a spring loaded button}


Don't let it put the whammy on you its only wires & stuff they can get a bit confuding for old feble farts like me when you are having a bout with CRS but its Simple .

Sometimes you just have to back up & visualize what is supposed to be happening there & see the big picture & then zoom back in on the problem .


Well I hope this helps :welcome:






R :thumbup:
 
#8 ·
Rob Keller said:
All they mean is the key must be on{not necessarily running} & the switch for the cruise must be in the on position.

Well I hope this helps.


I understand your explaination perfectly...but you only talk about one part of the test - the Closed Circuit Switch test. Please explain to me the Open Circuit Switch test. If the Ignition must be ON and the main cruise switch must be ON... what circuit is "Open"? These two test proceedures side by side simply are not making any sense to me.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Ok I think I got it.

The two tests are indeed identical. The difference lies in what type of switches you have, NO (normally open) or NC (normally closed). I'm going to presume you have NO switches. If that is true, the NC part of the test would be irrelevant.


The manual provides a fairly decent voltage check on the wiring harness, do the voltages check out ok?
 
#10 ·
The open test is to make sure that it is indeed OPEN & the Closed is to make sure that it is closed .

There must be a printed board & or relay{'s} So if a relay was say sticking in the closed position then the "OPEN " test will show that.

OK
Back to the water metaphor .

The open & closed test would be the same as checking the sink to see if water comes out .

Just because you turned the valve off , you turned the handle but you assume the valve is operating .
It could be rotted off on the inside in the open position & you just think its closing.
You Will not know until you check the sink.

Thus the open & closed test.

At least that is my expert {yea right } interpretation .

OK the real burning Question here is :

Where the hell is Doc Vette :pimp: ?

LOL

I'm just saying he writes SOOOOooo much better than I.
He has a better vocabulary

Some one send up the Bat..I mean the Doc :pimp: single

LOL

Did that make it more understandable?




R :thumbup:
 
#11 ·
Doc here, :pimp:

NO....

THEY are not identical...

Look at the first set of parameters..

cboy said:
OPEN CIRCUIT SWITCH

8 Green + 12 VDC when the SET / COAST switch is pressed.
0 VDC when the SET / COAST switch is released.

6 Yellow ---->+ 12 VDC <----when the RESUME / ACCEL switch is pressed.
---->0 VDC <----when the RESUME / ACCEL switch is released.
THEN, Look at the second set of parameters:

cboy said:
CLOSED CIRCUIT SWITCH

8 Green ---->0 VDC<---- when the SET / COAST switch is pressed.
---->+12 VDC <----when the SET / COAST switch is released.

6 Yellow + 12 VDC when the RESUME / ACCEL switch is pressed.
0 VDC when the RESUME / ACCEL switch is released"
For some reason the 8 green and 6 yellow are being changed at the open/closed operation of the circuit..

What is the problem?

BTW: Sorry for the late reply..Having problems with Micro Nazis..every 3 months it wants me to "Activate windows" because "Major hardware changes have been made to this computer" (none have..) and locks me out of windows for 6 to 8 hours while I am on the phone to some idiot that can't speak English, trying to get it fixed..(which they haven't done yet..)

Doc :pimp:
 
#12 ·
docvette said:
What is the problem?
I think the problems is I must not be asking my question correctly.

In the two "parameters" you pointed to the tester does the exact same thing. In the case of the green wire, he/she presses the Set/Coast switch and looks at the meter. He/she then releases the Set/Coast and looks at the meter.

In parameter one, the result is supposed to be 12v when pressing the switch and 0 volts when the switch is released.

In parameter two, the result is supposed to be 0 volts when pressing the switch and 12 volts when the switch is release.

Why would there be ANY difference. Nothing else in the test procedure has changed (or at least no one has indicated there has been any change at all in the system or circuitry). In other words you are pressing and releasing the Set/Coast switch twice in a row. One time it's supposed to get one set of results and the next time it's supposed to get the opposite results.

PLEASE, somebody tell me the difference between parameter one and parameter two of the green wire test procedure.
 
#13 ·
Doc here, :pimp:

OK, I see it now..AND it looks like a misprint..should read on one as "when switch is pressed" and on the other as : when switch is released"..

Call Customer service, I'll just bet they'll verify this.

Doc :pimp:
 
#14 ·
I missed that one.

My symapthties about the tech service .
I get to deal with DEM peoples about 2 ~3 times a month :rolleyes: Cell phone /internet/TV never ends & they barly speak english. habla bla bblaabababbaa

sorry i missed that one cboy :(

WOW that was easy Hey Doc Where is that muti Billion dollar Lotto tickit?.

Still @ the lotto store :eek:




R :thumbup:
 
#15 ·
Doc,

Which line do you think is mis-printed? Is it the main heading "OPEN CIRCUIT SWITCH" or is it the parameter for the green wire testing? You may have found a problem totally separate from the one that is causing my confusion.

Let my trying asking the question a bit differently.

When the manual says "Closed Circuit Switch", what circuit/switch are they talking about? Is it the main circuit (ignition and cruise on/off switch) or is it, for example, the SET/COAST, green wire, sub-circuit?
 
#16 ·
cboy said:
Doc,

Which line do you think is mis-printed? Is it the main heading "OPEN CIRCUIT SWITCH" or is it the parameter for the green wire testing?
That is hard to say without looking at the whole schematic, but I'd bet it was the second parameter..

cboy said:
You may have found a problem totally separate from the one that is causing my confusion.

Let my trying asking the question a bit differently.

When the manual says "Closed Circuit Switch", what circuit/switch are they talking about? Is it the main circuit (ignition and cruise on/off switch) or is it, for example, the SET/COAST, green wire, sub-circuit?
The way I read it..They mean (or intended to mean..) (ignition/on..cruise switch/on..)

BTW: To add to your confusion..

That may have been the source of your microvolt leak if it was malfunctioning, IIRC, The Cruise disconnect goes through the brake lamp circuit..IF it had a Leakey (slightly reverse biasing ) Transistor, that would put a microvolt load on the lamps, that would not normally effect a regular lamp, BUT would have no problem lighting an LED...

Are we really confused now??

Doc :pimp:
 
#17 ·
docvette said:
Are we really confused now??
Very. But that's the normal state of events around MY garage.

The new cruise was just delivered by UPS so I replaced the servo only...left all the original wiring. A quick road test failed to engage the unit (power light comes on but it won't "set" when I press the set button. So now I'm on my way out to start testing the wires per the troubleshooting manual. I have no idea what I'm doing when I test those green and yellow wires since based on the parameters I'm bound to get a errant result on one or the other of the two parameters.
 
#18 ·
cboy said:
Very. But that's the normal state of events around MY garage.

The new cruise was just delivered by UPS so I replaced the servo only...left all the original wiring. A quick road test failed to engage the unit (power light comes on but it won't "set" when I press the set button. So now I'm on my way out to start testing the wires per the troubleshooting manual. I have no idea what I'm doing when I test those green and yellow wires since based on the parameters I'm bound to get a errant result on one or the other of the two parameters.

Doc here, :pimp:

TRY it like the book says first..IF the readings don't conform..Assume parameter #2 is backward..and compare against that..I think it might make sense then, if it does.

Doc :pimp:
 
#19 ·
I ran the series of voltage tests for all the cruise wires (eight altogether).

Regarding the green (8) wire and yellow (6) wire which started this thread because of the way the troubleshooting manual said to test them...I think they both tested properly.

With the ignition on and the cruise main switch on, the GREEN wire showed 12 volts when the SET/COAST was pressed and 0 volts when it was released.

With the ignition on and the cruise main switch on, the YELLOW wire showed 12 volts when the RESUME/ACCEL was pressed and 0 volts when it was released.

That falls under the expected test results with the OPEN CIRCUIT SWITCH.

I'm simply disregarding the CLOSED CIRCUIT SWITCH portion of the test because I have no idea what it means or what I would do to conduct the test and differently than what I did above.

The other wires tested according to the parameters with two exceptions. My ground wire, which is supposed to show continuity with ground at all times, tested .02 instead of a perfect continuity of 0. I don't believe this would cause the cruise to malfunction but if others think it is a problem, speak up.

The wire that I think might be the culprit is the purple (4) wire which is the signal from the brake switch which disengages the cruise. This wire is supposed to test 12 volts when the brake is depressed and 0 volts when the brake is released. I does show 12 volts when depressed but when released I still get a reading of 0.03 volts (29 mV on the 200mV scale).

This would tend to support earlier conjecture that my lit LED tail lights and my
malfunctioning cruise control were related.

But now the question is, how is that juice getting into that particular wire? Based on the other thread where we discussed the lit LED's, I've pulled the fuse for the hazard/brake lights and the fuse for the turn signals. I've also pulled the flasher modules for the turn signals and the hazards and I've disconnected the wires at the LED's and the wire at the exit (cold) side of the brake switch and I've disconnected the wiring module from the cruise control. (This eliminates a number of potential culprits that have been suggested.) At that point I still got a reading of 27 mV (on 200 mV scale) at the brake switch cold side wire (disconnected from the switch). BTW, the purple wire on the cruise which tested bad is tapped into this cold side brake switch wire.

This cold side brake wire runs to a wiring harness at the steering column and then up the column to the turn signal and hazard switch on the column (along with whatever other connections it might make up there). When I pull apart the wiring harness I now get a 0 mV reading at the brake switch cold side wire and also a 0mV reading at the other end of that same wire at the steering column wiring harness.

If anybody is still following along, I next tested all the wires on steering column side of the disconnected harness. As expected, these all test 0.

I then tested all the wired on the incoming side of the disconnected steering column wiring harness. There is one wire which tested 12 volts but it doesn't connect to a pin on the other side of the harness. I would have thought this was the horn wire...but I guess not.

Two other wires, the left and right rear turn signal wires tested about 10 mV each (on 200 mV scale). All the other wires were either 0 or 1-2 mV. Keep in mind, the left and right rear turn signal wires are disconnected at the LED's. Interestingly, when I test the brake/turn signal wire at the rear tail lights (disconnected from the LEDs) the right one gets a reading of 24 mV and the left one gets a reading of 4 mV.

I've tried to follow those two turn signal wires as best I can and it appears (although the wires are wrapped and they do duck into some spots that I can't see) that they are just two straight runs of wire directly from the incoming side of the wiring harness to the rear tail lights. So how I'm getting these small voltage readings at each end of the wires is beyond me. And on top of that, the only other wire they are wrapped with is the tail light wire and that gets a reading of 0 at the LED.

So if anyone has any ideas...fire away. I'm baffled. I'm getting voltage from two wires that aren't connected to ANYTHING.
 
#20 ·
Doc here, :pimp:

First, without all the documentation in front of me..your troubleshoot is hard to follow , BUT sounds logical to me..

The first thing to do, is go back to that ground..Take your meter, and Calibrate it on Ohms scale, Short the probes together, on R X 1, for "000" This takes the resistance Factor out of the probes..

IF you do that and Still get 0.2 ohms to ground, try some fresh battery's in the meter..IF you STILL get the 0.2 reading, Burnish the metal bare, Install a star washer, a lock washer, and Tech screw..

IF you Still get a 0.2..run a ground wire DIRECT to the battery..(and consider a ground buss install, you may have different potentials Throughout the body/frame/engine which will come back on you later..)

NEXT , I believe the Cruise control MAY NOT be compatible with LED tail/Brake lamps..OR it has a MAJOR malfunction..( this is more likely) Sooo, your faced with two choices..Pull the CC completely out..box it up and send it back defective..OR you Could get a DUEL brake lamp switch..Which , other than leakage, IF the CC will work, MAY solve ALL the problems.

The Duel brake lamp switch would be identical to a single switch EXCEPT it has Four sets of contacts..two for Brake lamps (Hot and Lamps) and Two for Cruise Control (hot and disconnect) Both would be isolated circuits from one another..

IF you can't find a Duel brake lamp switch for your application, you Can use a relay and achieve the same result..

Just from what you have posted, and without seeing the schematic, This is what I think is what may be happening..There is a BAD transistor or Linear OP amp in the cruise control that has a minor reverse bias leakage (small amount of voltage/current at the base of the semiconductor) that shouldn't be there.
Akin to one bad diode on an alternator..it still charges, but goes dead over night because it (the bad diode) has a reverse bias and imposes a load on the battery just sitting..

NOW, in a normal setup (incandescent lamps) that voltage/current would not effect a thing..because it couldn't be used as a source of power to another circuit..In your case, it IS using current because the LED only asks for a Very small amount of current to operate..OK, This in turn starts a "Chain" , that may be ENOUGH current to forward bias the gate on the semiconductor in the cruise control Brake lamp connection (the Disconnect part of the CC Circuit) and the CC THINKS the brakes are on..(because the lights are on..) and automatically disconnects the CC from engaging..Hence..it doesn't work when switched on..

Do you Follow the logic path? Hope so..

Anyway, I think the Cure is a duel Isolated Brakelamp switch (or relay if not doable) second only to sending the CC unit back defective and trying another..(and this may not be the cure..that small voltage may be typical on all their units..)

Doc :pimp:
 
#21 ·
docvette said:
First, without all the documentation in front of me..your troubleshoot is hard to follow
That's why I provided a link to the manual with the troubleshooting page in one of the early posts...but then I can understand folks not wanting to wade through all that.

NEXT , I believe the Cruise control MAY NOT be compatible with LED tail/Brake lamps..OR it has a MAJOR malfunction...
I think I've got to disagree (I can't believe I'm disagreeing with Doc on an electrical matter). Regarding a malfunction, I've tested two servo/computer chips and they both reacted the same way (failure to engage at speed). On the matter of incompatibility I must also disagree because, as noted in my last post, the cruise was totally disconnected from the electrical system at the time I tested the wiring and isolating the stray voltage in the rear brake light wiring. Since I'm getting this stray voltage reading when the cruise is out of the system I don't understand how it could be the cause of the voltage.

...OR you Could get a DUEL brake lamp switch..Which , other than leakage, IF the CC will work, MAY solve ALL the problems.
As usual, I think Doc has come up with the solution (in spite of the fact I might disagree on the root cause). But instead of a duel brake lamp switch why couldn't I simply install a second normal brake switch JUST to operate the cruise control. These are cheap and readily available (in fact I've probably got a couple of them somewhere in one of my parts bins). It's certainly a lot easier that trying to replace the wiring to the rear brake lights.

It would still me interesting to find out how that stray voltage is getting into the system...but I think I'll try the second brake switch idea out right away and make sure I can get the cruise functioning properly.

Thanks Doc (and all others who responded). I realize there was a lot of crap to wade through on this thread...but I felt I had to include a lot of it so that we could zero in on the problem.
 
#22 ·
Well the only thing I am sure @ this point is this is complex.

I have a few ideas

1. Definitely add /reinforce your grounds if you have to run one right to the battery

2. Try checking the brake light switch .
~? is it compatible with LED's{I know they act weirdly}

3. Try adding a temporary light on the tail lamps {1157} to see if the Cruise unit responds to the incandescent bulbs.

4. If you are getting juice from some where that its not supposed to follow that! it might be a short somewhere causing the back fire that is screwing the works.

5. Also take a break. & "ZOOM OUT" & check all the stoOopid things fuses /breakers, connections ,yadda yadda, sometimes its the most silly Lil thing that will set your head on fire & your arses a catchin'.

The problem is right there we just have to be smarter than the wires :D

I could not find the schematic ill try again. :confused:



R :thumbup:
 
#25 ·
Bummer. I thought we were really onto something with this separate brake switch idea. But before I went to the trouble of buying/installing a second switch I thought I'd test the theory to make absolutely certain the voltage reading on that purple wire (from the brake switch to the cruise) was, indeed my problem. (Assumption being the stay voltage in the brake wire was always telling the cruise to shut off.)

What I did was simply clip that wire off completely from the cruise control. I then road tested the cruise figuring I would use the cruise ON/OFF switch to disengage the cruise when it kicked in. But it STILL did not engage. The cruise switch LED comes on showing I have power to the cruise but when I press the set/coast switch, nothing happens. I double checked and I DO have 12 volts to the set/coast switch when it is pressed. So the problem must lie elsewhere.

I don't think it is a ground problem because my cruise switch LED shows I have power through the switch to ground when I turn it on.

Also, I don't use the magnet system, so the magnet could not be missing. I run the cruise off the electronic sending unit for the speedo. This has worked flawlessly for the past 20K miles. However, my next step is to redo the wiring connections to this sending unit just to make sure they haven't corroded or broken. I may also replace the wire to the coil just to make sure it is sending an accurate signal. It showed a signal during testing but seemed to jump around a bit erratically.

Assuming none of those things make a difference...it's back to the drawing board.
 
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