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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2013, 07:48 PM
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I shot these with flip flop pearls and then cleared with many coats and wet sanded and cleared again till there was no edge at all!! In the 2nd pick that is my last coat of clear and its not sanded or pollished yet! Its many hrs of work!! The flames are quick and easy its the tapeing that takes the time and the clear coats , wet sanding and pollishing that I take the aspirin For LOL

Jester




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Old 04-19-2013, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by 496CHEVY3100 View Post
I have saw som really good Ghost flames ,you could walk by a couple times before you would notice them, I don't want sharp edges Tape line , showing .,I normaly use fine line an a color change or painted pin stripe,would flame be different,i hate to ask so many questions but I have never painted flames and I have 5 months in this rebuild and paint .I don't want to mess it up ,
Again, I hope you don't mind Jay if I chime in here, Ghost flames or flames of any kind are really a matter of taste, some are tastefully done others aren't...LOL.

One of the most important thing when doing flames is to make sure that each side matches the other. Using fine line is a good idea, when used properly and remember it's still just tape. Fine line if stretched to much will lift on corners or pull back if stretched to far to get that straight crisp line, even if it is laid down and all edges and curves look fine, solvents when drying will shrink an over stretched tape, especially if your blending color on top of color.

Where the matter of taste comes in may be how visible you want the flames to be, the amount of flames you see can be controlled in a number of ways. One way to control the visual aspect of ghost flames is to use pearls, the color of pearls is activated by light, especially sunlight. by painting a vehicle in a base, laying out your flames and masking the rest of the vehicle. Now add a small amount of pearl to the base color (do test panels with the base color and the pearl color, without light they should look like the same color, with light, especially sunlight, the flames will be visible and the base color hasn't been effected if only a small amount of pearl has been used), this type of ghost flame works well with darker colors, the darker the base color, the less pearl you need to spray in your flamed area....After this procedure has been done, clear the vehicle, I apply a minimum of 4 coats of clear. Then I color sand and polish...the tape line disappears.

Another method of Ghost Flaming and the one I prefer to use is the tri-coat method. First, I base the vehicle, then lay down my flames and mask the rest of the vehicle. Generally I use a variation of the base color, (either lighter or darker, depending on effect) and air brush the color onto the inside edge of the flame. Many times I use flames that intertwine each other, it give a better effect and shows great detail. The trick here is to remember which flame is crossing on top of which flame and keeping all flame crossing the same from side to side.

Here is a URL of a tri-coat flamed hood I did on a C10 truck. The truck was painted a metallic blue as a base color, for the flames I used a variation of the base blue and made 7 different shades of blue, airbrushed/blended them into the outlined flamed area. Using the same method, I laid flames down both sides of the truck and repeated the airbrushing/blending technique. After the flames where what I wanted, I unmasked all the flames and applied 4 coats of a transparent Orange Mid coat, followed by 5 coats of clear, cut and polish.

Hood Only
087 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

This shows the flames intertwining.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wickedg...7629325924897/


One of the biggest challenges, as I mentioned is getting the ghost flames to be identical side to side on the fenders took a fair amount of measuring, re-taping and walking around from side to side to make sure both sides where the same. Getting the flames the exact same from side to side on the hood was even more difficult because you can see both sides of the hood at the same time. The hardest part of the whole job was 6 months later the customer came to me with a tonneau cover that he wanted the exact same flames that I had put on the hood brushed into the tonneau cover. My memory is OK but , not nearly good enough to remember all the different shades of blue I used to get the effect on the rear cover that I got on the hood. This is where keeping a log or daily journal comes in handy and I had all 7 different shades of blue written down with formulas for all shades and how I had blended the colors together to get the effect. The hood did match the tonneau cover.

Here are several more pictures of the truck, side views with and without light on the flames.

Inner Wheel Well
Left Front Fender
097 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Engine Bay
085 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Fender
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wickedg...7629325924897/

Complete Truck
111 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

If there are question I can answer I'd be happy to and Jay I hope it's Okay that I went on a long rant and posted URL's.

Ray

Last edited by 69 widetrack; 04-19-2013 at 08:24 PM.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2013, 08:24 PM
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Sorry guys, I labeled a bunch of the pictures wrong...I'll fix it.

Ray
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:34 PM
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Okay...I hope I have everything labeled correctly.

Truck Driver's side, inside shop
009 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Passenger side, minimal light
002 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Passenger side, No light
001 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Passengr side fender
016 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Sorry guys....I hope you can see how light affects the flames and no light virtually makes them disappear.

Ray
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2013, 09:04 PM
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Nice Ray I really like that!!!! I knew you miss labled em but their still an eye popper!!!

I dont agree that matching both sides is most important. It depends on the design! Many of the best flame jobs I ever saw were not the same as you walked around the vehicle! I have no favorit way to do it! Its just what pleases my eye and the customers LOL! But if the customer and I cant come to an agreement I tell em to go somewhere else Some customers want the uglyest stuff LOL I like the ones that just turn me loose and let me do what I want with just their Idea that I scetched on paper that they liked.

This corvette is not the same! I lay out flames freehand as the tape comes off the role LOL Some I get so close to the same that people cant tell and some I purposly try not to make them the exact same flame just the same design! Its in the eye of the beholder



http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/atta...21511366421511
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2013, 09:49 PM
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Nice Ray I really like that!!!! I knew you miss labled em but their still an eye popper!!!

I dont agree that matching both sides is most important. It depends on the design! Many of the best flame jobs I ever saw were not the same as you walked around the vehicle! I have no favorit way to do it! Its just what pleases my eye and the customers LOL! But if the customer and I cant come to an agreement I tell em to go somewhere else Some customers want the uglyest stuff LOL I like the ones that just turn me loose and let me do what I want with just their Idea that I scetched on paper that they liked.

This corvette is not the same! I lay out flames freehand as the tape comes off the role LOL Some I get so close to the same that people cant tell and some I purposly try not to make them the exact same flame just the same design! Its in the eye of the beholder



http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/atta...21511366421511
I love the look of that Corvette, those flames do suit that car and maybe what I should have said, is if your trying to get flames to be symmetrical, make you sure you take the time to measure, then remeasure to be sure, then measure again. What gets me is when it's obvious that the flames are supposed to be the same and they are so far off it's scary. You can see that no attention to that part of the detail has been applied.

Great job on that Vette my friend.

Ray
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2013, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
I love the look of that Corvette, those flames do suit that car and maybe what I should have said, is if your trying to get flames to be symmetrical, make you sure you take the time to measure, then remeasure to be sure, then measure again. What gets me is when it's obvious that the flames are supposed to be the same and they are so far off it's scary. You can see that no attention to that part of the detail has been applied.

Great job on that Vette my friend.

Ray
Ray

Jester
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2013, 10:08 PM
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Every painter will have his own preferences, but here is the method I use to develop flame patterns, and which also happens to be nearly identical on each side.

I cover the area to be flamed with strips 18 inch masking paper. I do this on the driver side, since I am right handed, and want to draw from front to back. Don't overlap the paper much, and tape all butted joints good.

I use a graphite stick. It is a wide flat black stick that you can buy at art stores, that is basically pencil lead. I stick it in the body seams, and run it down there length to show the location. I also run it down the peaks in the body, and around any lights or trim.

After that is all done, I start to sketch the flames lightly. After I get them roughed out, I study them to see if...

...the "flow" is parallel to the body lines (unless I don't want them to be)

...the scale of the flames fits the size of the vehicle, and the flame style I want.

... the thickness of the flame "licks" are uniform

...the "licks" are the length I want, and all about the same.

... and the teardrop shapes inside the flames flow well, and are similar in size.

Anything I want to change is remarked.

Next I sketch over the pattern, but darken it.

I study it for a last time, and then remove the pattern.

Now I lay it on a sheet of cardboard, and if it is hard to see exactly, I may take a marker and carefully draw the pattern exactly.

Your sign supply store can sell you a little tool called a "pounce wheel. Use that to go over your design as exactly as you can.

Wipe all of the excess graphite off of the paper, and tape the pattern back on the car.

Use a piece of an old T-shirt to make a "pounce pad". fill it with either talcum powder, or graphite... then seal it up with a rubber band.

Rub the pounce pad lightly over your whole pattern, then wipe the residue off of the paper. The powder will go through the holes, giving you a fine dotted line to mask against.

Flip the paper over, and hang it on the passenger side... using the seams and holes to line it up the same as the other side.

Repeat the procedure to duplicate the pattern again... but reversed.

MASK YOUR FLAMES! Using good masking technique, you can make them flow even more smoothly!

This method gave me several advantages...

A chance to refine the design easily, without having to pull all of the tape off and start over.

A chance to see it laid out, and be able to make changes quickly... instead of finding I didn't like it, and again would have to start over, or keep changing it using tape.

Nearly identical patterns. You can also do this to make a symetrical pattern on the hood, truck, etc.

As a bonus, keep the paper patterns, just in case you ever need to repair body damage... or his brother wants the same design. :-)

P.S. I use 1/8th inch 3-M green paper tape. It is VERY sticky, and will NOT move and curl on the curves! To get a sharper edge, shoot a coat of clear before the color. Then you have sealed the tape and tape joints, creating a sharper cleaner edge.

You may notice that I like high impact graphics. {:-) I do conservative stuff... but will always show the "flash".
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2013, 10:46 PM
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I shot these with flip flop pearls and then cleared with many coats and wet sanded and cleared again till there was no edge at all!! In the 2nd pick that is my last coat of clear and its not sanded or pollished yet! Its many hrs of work!! The flames are quick and easy its the tapeing that takes the time and the clear coats , wet sanding and pollishing that I take the aspirin For LOL

Jester




http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/atta...d=136641828888
Those work really well on that car! Nice!
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2013, 10:49 PM
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Okay...I hope I have everything labeled correctly.

Truck Driver's side, inside shop
009 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Passenger side, minimal light
002 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Passenger side, No light
001 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Passengr side fender
016 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Sorry guys....I hope you can see how light affects the flames and no light virtually makes them disappear.

Ray
Very subtle... but nice complexity!
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2013, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
Okay...I hope I have everything labeled correctly.

Truck Driver's side, inside shop
009 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Passenger side, minimal light
002 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Passenger side, No light
001 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Passengr side fender
016 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Sorry guys....I hope you can see how light affects the flames and no light virtually makes them disappear.

Ray
That is a Work of Art ,that is the effect I want for ,my truck a 53 chevy it is Porsche guards red,i only want it on hood grill and front fenders so I will have a painted grill not chrome your choice of colors are perfect.
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Old 04-20-2013, 12:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
Okay...I hope I have everything labeled correctly.

Truck Driver's side, inside shop
009 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Passenger side, minimal light
002 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Passenger side, No light
001 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Passengr side fender
016 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Sorry guys....I hope you can see how light affects the flames and no light virtually makes them disappear.

Ray
What I want to see is that sedan in the back ground of the first photo!

Brian
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Old 04-20-2013, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by TucsonJay View Post
Every painter will have his own preferences, but here is the method I use to develop flame patterns, and which also happens to be nearly identical on each side.

I cover the area to be flamed with strips 18 inch masking paper. I do this on the driver side, since I am right handed, and want to draw from front to back. Don't overlap the paper much, and tape all butted joints good.

I use a graphite stick. It is a wide flat black stick that you can buy at art stores, that is basically pencil lead. I stick it in the body seams, and run it down there length to show the location. I also run it down the peaks in the body, and around any lights or trim.

After that is all done, I start to sketch the flames lightly. After I get them roughed out, I study them to see if...

...the "flow" is parallel to the body lines (unless I don't want them to be)

...the scale of the flames fits the size of the vehicle, and the flame style I want.

... the thickness of the flame "licks" are uniform

...the "licks" are the length I want, and all about the same.

... and the teardrop shapes inside the flames flow well, and are similar in size.

Anything I want to change is remarked.

Next I sketch over the pattern, but darken it.

I study it for a last time, and then remove the pattern.

Now I lay it on a sheet of cardboard, and if it is hard to see exactly, I may take a marker and carefully draw the pattern exactly.

Your sign supply store can sell you a little tool called a "pounce wheel. Use that to go over your design as exactly as you can.

Wipe all of the excess graphite off of the paper, and tape the pattern back on the car.

Use a piece of an old T-shirt to make a "pounce pad". fill it with either talcum powder, or graphite... then seal it up with a rubber band.

Rub the pounce pad lightly over your whole pattern, then wipe the residue off of the paper. The powder will go through the holes, giving you a fine dotted line to mask against.

Flip the paper over, and hang it on the passenger side... using the seams and holes to line it up the same as the other side.

Repeat the procedure to duplicate the pattern again... but reversed.

MASK YOUR FLAMES! Using good masking technique, you can make them flow even more smoothly!

This method gave me several advantages...

A chance to refine the design easily, without having to pull all of the tape off and start over.

A chance to see it laid out, and be able to make changes quickly... instead of finding I didn't like it, and again would have to start over, or keep changing it using tape.

Nearly identical patterns. You can also do this to make a symetrical pattern on the hood, truck, etc.

As a bonus, keep the paper patterns, just in case you ever need to repair body damage... or his brother wants the same design. :-)

P.S. I use 1/8th inch 3-M green paper tape. It is VERY sticky, and will NOT move and curl on the curves! To get a sharper edge, shoot a coat of clear before the color. Then you have sealed the tape and tape joints, creating a sharper cleaner edge.

You may notice that I like high impact graphics. {:-) I do conservative stuff... but will always show the "flash".
Thanks for the info,i had some flames painted about 40 years ago on a race car the best I can remember he used a pinwheel and a powder bag ,to duplicate the pattern on the other side,
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by 496CHEVY3100 View Post
That is a Work of Art ,that is the effect I want for ,my truck a 53 chevy it is Porsche guards red,i only want it on hood grill and front fenders so I will have a painted grill not chrome your choice of colors are perfect.
Thanks...but the customer picked out the color. All I did was hand him the PPG Vibrance Color Chip book and told him to choose. The funny thing is, I did a car for his partner while I was doing his truck. They both choose colors from PPG's Vibrance Collection. During the time that they where choosing their colors, one of those TV shows came on and showed how difficult Tri coats where to do and how everything had to be together to paint or it wouldn't match. I was grilled for hours, questioning me about being able to make tri coats match because the vehicles weren't going to be together when they where painted and how pissed they would be if it didn't.

It wasn't until a few pieces, painted separately, came out the same color that they where at ease. Sometimes those Saturday morning car shows do more harm than good, for people that have done it before anyway. If these customer's hadn't seen that show, it would have saved them a lot of money. If I'm going to get quizzed on something I know I can do, I'm on the clock, 10 minutes here, 20 minutes there...it adds up.

Ray
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Old 04-20-2013, 07:00 AM
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[QUOTE=TucsonJay;1668396]
As a bonus, keep the paper patterns, just in case you ever need to repair body damage... or his brother wants the same design. :-)

This to me this is very important...it will save so much time if you already have the pattern and need to do a repair. I've had situations where the customer has loved the flames but grown tired of the main color of the body, having the pattern has save you a lot of time and the customer a bunch of money. If the brother wants the same design...they better be twins...LOL.

Ray
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