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coldknock 11-26-2005 07:51 PM

The D.O.T. gonna gitcha.
Better get a CDL and a log book if ya wanna haul your car to a race.

Before I go into some more details…check this part out. Since this racer had no logbook (do any of us?) the DOT Officer informs him he had to park the trailer for 10 hours since there is no way he can be sure this racer has driven more than the allowed 14 hours that day.

If the gubment wants to play that game I'll deduct the car, truck, trailer, maintainence cost, fuel for both of them and see how they like them apples. All of us should do it and see how quick and hard the IRS comes down on the D.O.T. buttwipes for taking a bite out of the war money.


bigun 11-26-2005 07:58 PM

One of the NASCAR mags was warning about this last year.

HemmiGremmie 11-26-2005 08:01 PM

Already got my CDL. HG :thumbup:

1ownerT 11-26-2005 10:39 PM

It is an interesting article, my assumption is that it is more of the fallout of 9/11. It appears, to me anyway, when you first read it that the IRS and the DOT are in this together, but why would one need the other.?
The IRS can get all of the income info they need by 1099's, and what business is it of the DOT to try and determine what is or is not a Commercial Business on the side of the road.?
The best part of it is the "you are determined to be a commercial enterprise if you race for money and or deduct your racing expenses from your IRS taxes and show the winnings on a an IRS #1099." Without a slew of sponsors I didn't think you could make any money racing.
In my opinion it is an excuse to be able to stop virtually any truck on the road at any time, for any reason (most likely lookin out for terrorist)
Thank God for the Patriot Act!........BS!!!

frankenstang57 11-27-2005 01:23 AM

DOT, get bent! Hope it hurts... I have a CDL and have been hassled by those ****** in the past.. For what it's worth, my buddy is a rock hauler. A DOT Nazi stopped him and made him scale his truck, 15 miles out of his way. Fuel burnt=his loss. Good guy, way laid back. He drove 20-25 mph all the way to the scale, and stopped for every light, wether it was green or not. He figured, if they're going to waste his time and $$$, it might as well benefit other drivers tying up the DOT monkey as well... Gotta love it! I know a guy who was stopped in NV. with a 40' trailer and a VW Beetle on it. He was hauling for himself personally. Since his truck was registered to his biusiness, he got a list of tickets as long as my arm, and one for no log book. Scares me a bit. I run from Co. to Fla. once a year, 40hrs on the road straight. My wife drives occassionally. Same deal, F-250 with a 40' trailer and 2 cars. Me no stopy at scales either. Bastards could have a field day! BTW, back in the day I got a ticket for no logbook, but I was a local=no logbook. Same bastards who gave me a ticket for being 200# overweight on an axle, but 2000# under my GVW. Ah, make it stop! My head hurts!!

bigun 11-27-2005 08:42 AM

I've been checking out a site for people who take used class 8 trucks, bus's and turn them into RVs. I am wondering how this is going to affect them since a lot of those things are huge!! I am in the process of building up a F350 crew cab Dually to tow mine and my buddies off road rigs, I was planning on getting a big goose neck trailer putting a camper on the front and the rigs on the back now I don't know.

Johnny Mac 11-27-2005 10:06 AM

I've owned a trucking company for 20 years, the DOT has always been this way, the Patriot Act didn't change anything. They'll write their own mother a ticket.

It's like dead beat dads, it's politically correct to fund and enforce. No legislator will defend loosening the regulations, and honestly, I don't want an 80,000 pound truck running down the road that isn't mechanically sound either. My wife and children are on these roads too.

I believe a pickup must be registered as total weight including the trailer it's pulling, and that is where you qualify for the DOT shakedowns. Contact an attorney that is familiar with the trucking industry and arm yourself with whatever documents are required by the state you are licensed in. Once you pass the weigh stations you have left the "commercial zone" of the city and fall under DOT jursidiction.

Johnny Mac

1ownerT 11-27-2005 11:06 AM

The have not " always been this way". Enforcing regulations on commercial trucks, yes. Harassing a non-commercial 10,000 lb GVWR truck and trailer, no.
I totally agree, I don't want 80,000 lb POS on the roads either. These are apparently new regulations, the DOT around here would have been enforcing them a long time ago if they had been on the books.
I was the Equipment Manager for a construction company, when I left there you had to have a CDL if the GVWR was 12,000 lb or more and no log book was needed.

schnitz 11-27-2005 11:18 AM

I can't help but wonder, then, how long before a private carrier (namely people like me), are going to need a CDL. Granted, I don't haul that much or that often, but I sure used to. I'd be close to that magic #10,000 every time I'd load up. With 6,000lb plates on the truck and the trailer. Couple that with the "not enough lighting" and I'd still be in the crowbar hotel. I guess it's a good thing nobody pays me for hooking up.... Nice to see it happened in Wisconsin. :rolleyes:

In a while, Chet.

RCastle 11-27-2005 11:22 AM

The DOT has the authority to pull over ANY motor vehicle. They have the jurisdiction to pull you over in your Buick going to church. They have been working the I-65 corridor here with the Metro Police for years now.I see them with passenger cars all the time,and trucks with trailers.Thank goodness we do not have to stop at the weigh Gonna get a Pre-Pass for my car. :D

Johnny Mac 11-27-2005 11:54 AM

If the DOT has a buick pulled over, he was speeding. They are an extension of the Highway Patrol and will enforce the law like any other cop.

I don't own any trucks registered less than 24,000, but even the lowly cab driver is required to have at least a class E CDL license. AND licensing your pickup with the combined trailer weight has been on the books forever.

Johnny Mac

bigun 11-27-2005 12:40 PM

According to my NM drivers license Class D. I am supposed to be able to drive "a single vehicle less than 26,000lb GVR. May not tow in Excess of 10,000lb GVR unless equipped with class 4 equilizer hitch or 5th wheel"

PrimeMover 11-27-2005 12:41 PM

A fledgling DOT started thier hayday back in the early 80's after Reagan deregulated the transportation industry. The jypo truckers with worn out rigs and no sleep were free to roam the countryside, cutting each other's throats and killing people in the process. Once the government got a foot in the door on that one, armed with new highway death toll statistics, they realized what a gold mine they were sittin' on. They didn't take long to blow the department up to the monster it is today. The new DOT with thier monkey-suits, creepers and jump-scales are having a picknik with just about everybody who drives a truck of any kind. Surprized?

Commercial drivers who run for the big companies these days, no longer need to carry log books. It's all done with GPS and an onboard computer. Dispatchers know exactly where thier trucks are and how fast thier going without ever having to leaving the terminal. They know when your sittin' and when your rollin'....
Talk about Big Brother.. I'm just glad I gave it up over 20 years ago. :)

I still carry a class A CDL with doubles, triples and tank vehicles endorsments and a valid DOT medical card. It's kind of a personal memento to the better days when trucking was a better trade.. Just never know when I might need it in a pinch. :)

RCastle 11-27-2005 01:20 PM

Get caught without a log book and see what they do,you will sit,or get fined or both. I work for an extremely large trucking company and that log had better be filled out correctley,and be up to date.Most all of our units have Pre-Pass or similar items depending on which state they run thro.It attaches to your windshield and when you pass under the reciever hanging over the interstate before the scalehouse,you will either get a green,or a red light flash up on it.If it is green,you do not even have to pull into the weigh station,even if they are opened.If it goes red,you pull into line.The DOT can scale you,then pull you over to do a full inspection of your unit,from rust on one rim from a loose lug nut to an inoperative marker light,they can nail you.One brake outo f adjustment can get you slammed.Plus,if you do get a fail inspection,you will have to get someone out to correct said defect before you can even leave.I have had to drive all the way to a scale house to replace a glad hand seal on a unit because the driver did not have an extra one in his truck.There are even a few heated scale inspection stations here in KY where the weather will not even save you.The way you present yourself to an officer all matters in how you get treated.Open the door and garbage falls out on the ground may get you a closer look,or if you take in a pile of unorganized papers,that can get you a closer look also.While the idea of having your tow rig and race trailer inspected seem bad,and I may not fully agree with the way the guy in the article was treated by the officer,some construction companies use the same type of trailer,and other companies also,who will pack them full.They run on electric surge brakes,and with all that weight and one short can cause an extremely heavy vehicle to become unstoppable.Keep your self prepared,keep your equipment nice and presentable(which most guys do) and hopefully they will leave you alone.
We watch video after video of new rules and regs,AND I AM IN THE SHOP!!! I do not even pull trailers for my company,except into the bays.Like all our new trucks have safety orange seatbelts in them,that way they are easily spotted by the company hounds and the DOT to see if that thing is across your chest.That I am sure,is just our companies policy and not a standard item on Class 8's.Yet,but I wonder if it will catch on,and the DOT then begins to require all new units to have them
As far as the DOT and passenger cars speeding,yeah,more than likely,but they can,just like police officers,pull you over for anything.They have the same authority as any cop when it comes to traffic.

KULTULZ 11-27-2005 08:23 PM

There is a glitch in the Regulations ( -FEDERAL MOTOR CARRIERS SAFETY REGULATIONS- ).

While a motor vehicle (and combinations) can be defined as a CMV at or above 10,001 lbs., it is not required (in most cases) to possess a CDL unless the vehicle has a GVW of 26,001 or more lbs.

While you may not have to possess a CDL to operate the vehicle, you will have to register the vehicle with the FMCSA and usually home state domicile and comply with certain regulations.

Now if you can prove that the vehicle is not used for a money-making business (hobby class or maybe transporting personal vehicle), it is also not considered a CMV.

And while here, a motor home (regardless of size) is not a CMV. It is designed for personal use.

Please consult with a transportation lawyer for the fine print... :thumbup:

Pertinent excerpts from the regulations;

§390.5 Definitions.

Unless specifically defined elsewhere, in this subchapter:

Commercial motor vehicle means any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle—

(1) Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 4,536 kg (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater;

Gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) means the value specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a single motor vehicle.

Gross combination weight rating (GCWR) means the value specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a combination (articulated) motor vehicle. In the absence of a value specified by the manufacturer, GCWR will be determined by adding the GVWR of the power unit and the total weight of the towed unit and any load thereon.

Motor carrier means a for hire motor carrier or a private motor carrier. The term includes a motor carrier's agents, officers and representatives as well as employees responsible for hiring, supervising, training, assigning, or dispatching of drivers and employees concerned with the installation, inspection, and maintenance of motor vehicle equipment and/or accessories. For purposes of subchapter B, this definition includes the terms employer and exempt motor carrier.

Private motor carrier means a person who provides transportation of property or passengers, by commercial motor vehicle, and is not a for-hire motor carrier.

§390.5 Definitions (Regulatory Guidance)

Question 3: If a vehicle's GVWR plate and/or VIN number are missing but its actual gross weight is 10,001 pounds or more, may an enforcement officer use the latter instead of GVWR to determine the applicability of the FMCSRs?

Guidance: Yes. The only apparent reason to remove the manufacturer's GVWR plate or VIN number is to make it impossible for roadside enforcement officers to determine the applicability of the FMCSRs, which have a GVWR threshold of 10,001 pounds. In order to frustrate willful evasion of safety regulations, an officer may therefore presume that a vehicle which does not have a manufacturer's GVWR plate and/or does not have a VIN number has a GVWR of 10,001 pounds or more if: (1) It has a size and configuration normally associated with vehicles that have a GVWR of 10,001 pounds or more; and (2) It has an actual gross weight of 10,001 pounds or more.

A motor carrier or driver may rebut the presumption by providing the enforcement officer the GVWR plate, the VIN number or other information of comparable reliability which demonstrates, or allows the officer to determine, that the GVWR of the vehicle is below the jurisdictional weight threshold.

Question 4: If a vehicle with a manufacturer's GVWR of less than 10,001 pounds has been structurally modified to carry a heavier load, may an enforcement officer use the higher actual gross weight of the vehicle, instead of the GVWR, to determine the applicability of the FMCSRs?

Guidance: Yes. The motor carrier's intent to increase the weight rating is shown by the structural modifications. When the vehicle is used to perform functions normally performed by a vehicle with a higher GVWR, §390.33 allows an enforcement officer to treat the actual gross weight as the GVWR of the modified vehicle.

Question 5: A driver used by a motor carrier operates a CMV to and from his/her residence out of State. Is this considered interstate commerce?

Guidance: If the driver is operating a CMV at the direction of the motor carrier, it is considered interstate commerce and is subject to the FMCSRs. If the motor carrier is allowing the driver to use the vehicle for private personal transportation, such transportation is not subject to the FMCSRs.

§383.3 Applicability.

(a) The rules in this part apply to every person who operates a commercial motor vehicle (CMV) in interstate, foreign, or intrastate commerce, to all employers of such persons, and to all States

§383.5 Definitions.

As used in this part:

Commerce means (a) any trade, traffic or transportation within the jurisdiction of the United States between a place in a State and a place outside of such State, including a place outside of the United States and (b) trade, traffic, and transportation in the United States which affects any trade, traffic, and transportation described in paragraph (a) of this definition.

Commercial driver's license (CDL) means a license issued by a State or other jurisdiction, in accordance with the standards contained in 49 CFR Part 383, to an individual which authorizes the individual to operate a class of a commercial motor vehicle.

Commercial motor vehicle (CMV) means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used in commerce to transport passengers or property if the motor vehicle-

(a) Has a gross combination weight rating of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) inclusive of a towed unit(s) with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds); or

(b) Has a gross vehicle weight rating of 11,794 or more kilograms (26,001 pounds or more); or

(c) Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or

(d) Is of any size and is used in the transportation of hazardous materials as defined in this section.


Gross combination weight rating (GCWR) means the value specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a combination (articulated) vehicle. In the absence of a value specified by the manufacturer, GCWR will be determined by adding the GVWR of the power unit and the total weight of the towed unit and any load thereon.

Gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) means the value specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a single vehicle.

Hazardous materials means any material that has been designated as hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and is required to be placarded under subpart F of 49 CFR part 172 or any quantity of a material listed as a select agent or toxin in 42 CFR part 73.

Non-CMV means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles not defined by the term "commercial motor vehicle (CMV)" in this section.

Out of service order means a declaration by an authorized enforcement officer of a Federal, State, Canadian, Mexican, or local jurisdiction that a driver, a commercial motor vehicle, or a motor carrier operation, is out of service pursuant to §§386.72, §392.5, §395.13, §396.9, or compatible laws, or the North American Uniform Out of Service Criteria.

§383.91 Commercial motor vehicle groups.

(a) Vehicle group descriptions. Each driver applicant must possess and be tested on his/her knowledge and skills, described in subpart G of this part, for the commercial motor vehicle group(s) for which he/she desires a CDL. The commercial motor vehicle groups are as follows:

(a)(1) Combination vehicle (Group A) — Any combination of vehicles with a gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds).

(a)(2) Heavy Straight Vehicle (Group B) — Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more), or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds) GVWR.

(a)(3) Small Vehicle (Group C) — Any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that meets neither the definition of Group A nor that of Group B as contained in this section, but that either is designed to transport 16 or more passengers including the driver, or is used in the transportation of materials found to be hazardous for the purposes of the Hazardous Materials Transportation Act and which require the motor vehicle to be placarded under the Hazardous Materials Regulations (49 CFR part 172, subpart F).

§383.91 Vehicle Groups (Regulatory Guidance)

Question 1: May a State expand a vehicle group to include vehicles that do not meet the Federal definition of the group?

Guidance: Yes, if:

a. A person who tests in a vehicle that does not meet the Federal standard for the Group(s) for which the issued CDL would otherwise be valid, is restricted to vehicles not meeting the Federal definition of such Group(s); and

b. The restriction is fully explained on the license.

Question 2: Is a driver of a combination vehicle with a GCWR of less than 26,001 pounds required to obtain a CDL even if the trailer GVWR is more than 10,000 pounds?

Guidance: No, because the GCWR is less than 26,001 pounds. The driver would need a CDL if the vehicle is transporting HM requiring the vehicle to be placarded or if it is designed to transport 16 or more persons.

Your mileage may vary.


DO NOT stand there and tell Smokey he is full of it because KULTULZ said something different than what he is saying. If you drive a CMV even without the need for a CDL, you should make yourself aware of these regulations. Most DOT people are not that well versed in them or are trying to pull something.

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