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Old 03-11-2009, 10:20 PM
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D-rust it, Safest rust remover, Evapo rust.

I have read many of the debates on rust, I understand to do it correctly it must be removed and epoxy primed. I have delt with a car that was dipped several years ago and it seeped or weeped at the joints due to the inability to neutralize. I was wondering if any one has tried any of the brands listed in the title? I have researched these and found that they use Chelation method. As I understand, this works by surrounding the oxide ions and is not strong enough to effect the iron ions.... There are several users that are much smarter than me, that may understand chemestry or MSDS sheets. I am not looking for a "magic bullit" I know this is a lot of work. I also know that what they promise, they don't always deliver.

I am going to attempt to post a photo of the project I plan on using it on.

If this stuff works:
Will it need to be neutralized?

Will it cause hydrogen embritlement?

How would you prep bare metal prior to epoxy?

Would you treat the inside as well? If not what would you reccomend?

thanks for the help.
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Old 03-12-2009, 07:41 AM
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You are pretty new to the board so you don't know what you are asking. Questions about rust products turns this board into a seething pit of vipers, driving most into raving lunatics!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am not exaggerating much; do a search on the topic and read some of the threads. It gets brutal. Had one last week that resulted in several long-term board members quitting the site!!!!

All that being said, look here (http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Rust) which is a compilation of members thoughts on the subject. Again, do a search on the site for rust killing topics and there is some good info embedded in the screaming and yelling.
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Old 03-12-2009, 08:50 AM
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I've used evapo-rust at roughly $8 a quart, and it had no effect on heavy rust. It worked ok on light surface rust but I think there are better products out there. I poured 2 quarts into a gas tank and let it sit for 2 weeks, when I poured it out I went searching for something else to use.
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Old 03-12-2009, 09:30 AM
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I have used Evapo-rust with good results but it is slow, you must keep the area wet with it and the manufacturer even recommends flooding the parts but it does work quite well. I have also found some of the Phosphoric acid products, some of which are sold as converters, to work quite well at removing rust and these seem to work faster. They do not need to be neutralized because they wash off easily with water as long as it is done while the solution is still wet.



Willys, I think this fella is asking about how to get rid of rust instead of converting it since that is what the products he asked about are for, also it looks as if he has been here for quite sometime so he is probably aware of the controversy. I certainly understand your concern about someone asking about rust and I too hope this thread does not get off to a bad start.
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Old 03-12-2009, 08:27 PM
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D-rust it.

Willys, I have done my homework. I have been around long enough to know how ridiculous the topic can get. I know that there is more than one effective way. And if I don't get the information/ feedback that I am expecting, I will da, and use navel jelly , just like Randy Furguson outlined in the best post ever on this subject. However, this method requires my attention to make any progress, With these products it states that a "continuous shower" process will also work. This was the method I was thinking of using. (Can be running while I'm at work). However the investment of large tarps, pump, hoses, nozzles would be minimal if these products perform as stated. But a total waste if they don't. Spent more time in shop class than in chemistry class, so I was hoping someone that can understand / explain the why it works. I would not be buying just the hype. I am not scared to try this stuff and report back my findings, just curious, if it works there has to be guys that have tried it.
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Old 03-12-2009, 09:32 PM
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35, When I used the Evapo-Rust it was for removing rust on some tractor parts that were small enough to submerge in it. These things were rusted fairly heavily and I had to degrease some of them before the process but it did work rather well, actually it was better than I expected. I know this is different than what you are wanting to do but but if it works to take off the kind of rust I was dealing with it should work quite well with body parts.
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Old 03-13-2009, 02:48 PM
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I like Must for Rust on light rust, Jasco on the heaver stuff.

I have never tried Evapo-Rust so I can't say if I like it or not.

Craig
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Old 03-13-2009, 07:03 PM
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Is media blasting out of the question?
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Old 03-13-2009, 09:53 PM
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I've been trying the electrolysis method on some smaller parts in a plastic garbage can and can say that it works quite well. Takes time but there are not harsh chemicals and very little mess. My kids got a hood he needs to de-rust and I'm trying to talk him into building a tank out of wood and plastic sheeting to give it a shot. The process leaves a black finish that I understand is magnetite, but it comes off with a wire wheel and leaves shiney metal behind. Wonder if you could use a pool and do the whole car? LOL
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Old 03-14-2009, 06:55 AM
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Crownver, Don't lol to loud, thats not far off from my thoughts. I have a rotisserie and will build a "shallow pool" and use the shower method, if this stuff works. Going to give it a try. I keep ya posted. As far as blasting goes, I have a large blaster and compressor, but will not chance the warpage or work hardening that it causes.
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Old 03-14-2009, 10:14 AM
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Some Answers

In response to the original questions regarding rust removal with: D-rust it, Safest rust remover, Evapo rust.

The most important, overlooked aspect of these fluids is that they are NON-HAZARDOUS, the 'greenest' of all rust removal technologies available today.

These products do not need to be neutralized after use due to their chelant based chemistry. You simply rinse the part thoroughly w/ water. One of the products mentioned will not leave any kind of coating on the metal after it is rinsed off. there will be nothing between the metal and the finish coat. In my opinion, this is the best adhesion one can achieve. The drawback is that the metal should be protected from further rusting with a spray on, 'dry to the touch', protectant or if small enough, wrapped in VCI paper, etc. The other two will leave a thin phosphate coating which will protect the metal from subsequent rust, but only for a short time. The coating they leave may, or may not be acceptable for finish coating.

These products will not cause any hydrogen embrittlement that I am aware of.

Other members familiar w/epoxy may be better able to answer the question concerning bare metal and epoxy.

If you refer to treating the inside with regards to rust removal, these products will remove rust as long as the surface can remain wet w/ the removal fluid, using either immersion or recirculation.

If you use these fluids in fuel tanks, clean them first w/ some detergent and rinse them out. These fluids will remove some oil dirt and grease, but doing it w/ the detergent is much less expensive. Let the rust remover remove rust, that is what it was designed for.

If there is rust scale, remove it first with a hammer, chain in fuel tanks, etc. Once again don't waste the fluid.

35 prog is correct in considering the continuous shower method. Once set up w/ the numerous , inexpensive off the shelf items, you let it do the work while you go to work, go to sleep, have a beer or whatever. I have used this method with much success in my repair shop.

These removal fluids rust removers are ideal for thin body parts. How many out there have sandblasted through a thin sheet metal part that otherwise would be intact if these rust removal fluids were used? They do not remove any metal unless left in the solution for an incredibly long time. Why would you want to leave them in longer once the rust is removed?

Crownver, You can de-rust an entire car if you scale up the continuous shower method. Plus you can spray it upside down to get under floors hardtops, trunklids, chassis, etc. The applications are merely limited to your imagination. Anyone can use duct tape, plastic, pump, hose and sprayer of choice. You can even use irrigation type pipe so that it drips or streams over the car to get the upper surfaces.

The black finish you refer to is not magnetite, but a soft black reside easily removed using a soft bristle brush (paint brush) and rinsing w/ water. That residue may fool you into thinking that the part is not even partially or completely de-rusted. You must check the object frequently, and clean off the residue to see the progress. If rust is still present(be sure to check the pits closely!) re-soak or shower again until removed.

35prog nailed it in his last reply. BTW: rotisseries work great!
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Old 03-14-2009, 10:27 AM
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I've rated this pleasant and technically educational thread and submitted it to be included in the knowledgebase.

Later, mikey
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Old 03-14-2009, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esprit Aviation
I The other two will leave a thin phosphate coating which will protect the metal from subsequent rust, but only for a short time. The coating they leave may, or may not be acceptable for finish coating.

When using any of the Phosphoric acid rust removers such as Rust-Mort, Ospho, etc (when used a remover and not a "converter") a person can choose to leave the Phosphate coating or not. If it is left to dry then the coating will remain but if it is thoroughly rinsed with water before it dries it will leave clean metal. If it dries and the coating needs to be removed later then it is a simple matter of re-wetting with the product and then rinsing before it dries again.
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Old 03-14-2009, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerrodsmike
I've rated this pleasant and technically educational thread and submitted it to be included in the knowledgebase.

Later, mikey
YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING YOU &^%@ing *&& BITE! NO ONE IN THIER RIGHT MIND WOULD *&@!%$* DO &^$#^@&* WITH &*$&@! OH MY GOD, YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING!

Just jarshing you Mikey!

Brian, again,
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Old 03-14-2009, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred
When using any of the Phosphoric acid rust removers such as Rust-Mort, Ospho, etc (when used a remover and not a "converter") a person can choose to leave the Phosphate coating or not. If it is left to dry then the coating will remain but if it is thoroughly rinsed with water before it dries it will leave clean metal. If it dries and the coating needs to be removed later then it is a simple matter of re-wetting with the product and then rinsing before it dries again.
Again ,no chemist here. My degree is in cardiology

The one thing that I can't get my head around is rinsing bare metal with water. I remember using a product such as this years ago and after following directions and rinsing it a VERY fast flash rust occured. I have never used it since. I obviously did something wrong if this is a standard procedure.

Brian
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