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Old 11-27-2010, 03:25 PM
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Dart Shp Sbc 407 Build information needed.

Long time reader. First time posting. Glad to know there are plenty of people out there who have some respectable knowledge! I'm kind of a all around do it your self kind of guy. From sheet metal replacement, paint, auto glass, to frame up chassis builds. The problem I have is putting together a engine recipe. A crate motor installation is no prob but i don't want to go that route. I just turned 30 and this is my first complete frame off restoration. 99% of work will be done myself.

I know this is valued info and kept a secret most of the time but if anyone would like to give some input and help me out it would be a blessing.

Heres what im trying to achieve. A manual 4 Speed, Bottom end power, 500+ horse, Aluminum headed full roller weekend driver on 91 octane pump gas and maybe a small gas kit in the future.

Now here is what Ive accumulated so far.

Dart shp 4.125-inch bore block. Soon to be 4.155 bore and keeping the 3.75 stroke. Deck height 9.025. No machine work yet.
MSD pro billet #85551
MSD 6 plus #6520
MSD blaster coil #8207
MSD 8.5 wires #30479
Holley 750 double pumper #0-4779s with #6 line '

This is were i need some good solid information.

I would like a scat forged bottom end with I beam rods. 3.75 stroke 350 main.
Rod length 5.7 or 6.0?
Forged Pistons. flat top or dish? Rings?
Aluminum heads 76cc or 64cc? 190 or 215?
Proper head gasket thickness? Copper?
Not much research or education on cams. This is where i have the biggest problems and misunderstanding. cam lift, duration?
Roller rocker size? solid or hydraulic?
Intake single or dual plane for crisp low end throttle response. I think dual plane.
Vic jr. Super Vic jr. rpm air gap, motown? '

I have some ideas from doing research but nothing solid yet. So im not completely in the dark.

Thanks to anyone who can help out. part #s are appreciated.

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Last edited by kertwood; 11-27-2010 at 03:41 PM.
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Old 11-27-2010, 03:42 PM
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How far do you want to push what you can do on pump gas?? This decides compression ratio, which then decides piston style and head chamber cc.

What RPM range are you looking for?? Max rpm you are willing to turn it?? HP goals??

You could build with three possible rod lengths - 5.700", 5.850", and 6.000". Compression ratio, rpm, and what you intend to do with it all influence this. How much(how often and HP level of kit) nitrous use in the future??

Do you want zero valvetrain maintainence (hydraulics), or are you willing do do a little adjusting and checking from time to time(solids). How much street time per year??

One thing - Why are you going to bore a brand new block +.030" oversize?? No good reason to do that, just have it honed to standard bore size 4.125" pistons. Six more cubic inches means very little, no sense taking one rebuild out of the good thick block right off the start.

What 4-speed? Most '60-70's era 4-speeds won't live long behind an engine like this if it hooks to the ground.
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Old 11-27-2010, 05:01 PM
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Your right i think i will keep the 4.125 bore for a 400. Ive Been doing a little research and i think i found what im looking for! Just not 100% sure.

Push 550 max on gas. Not looking for more than 700 for motor and gas together.

Max rpm 6500. I still like bottom end power though.

10;1 compression is all im looking for. zero valvetrain maintaience.

150 shot max on the bottle. Weekends in the summer at track.

forged flat tops.

The article doesn't state much on rod length or head gasket size. Did state H beam rods.

215 cc 72cc dart pro 1 heads.

Does this info help out any? Thanks for replying.
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Old 11-27-2010, 05:30 PM
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By the way what trans do you recommend for fun street use and some track time?

Manual TKO 5 speed?

Automatic 400?

The trans choice is still up in the air. haven't purchased yet.

Guess that brings another question. Stall?

Thanks!
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Old 11-27-2010, 08:52 PM
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Sounds like you are on the right track. 5.7" or 6" rod really doesn't make a big difference at that rpm level. With the 5.7" rod the piston will be a little beefier and handle nitrous loads better, the 6" rod piston will put the wrist pin hole up into the oil ring groove and require a support spacer for the oil ring.

For a cam, hydraulic roller, 246/252@.050" duration, around .550" lift, on a 108 lobe seperation.

On the trans - TKO 5 speed, Jerico 4-speed, new AutoGear Muncie, a rebuilt TopLoader Ford. Automatic - 400, 3000+rpm stall, or Powerglide with 3800+rpm stall.

Have the block decked to 9.000" height, which will put pistons at zero deck, flush with the block, and use a .039-.041" composition gasket(Fel-Pro or ROL) or use the MLS Cometic or MLS Fel-Pro in .040" thickness. MLS is Multi Layer Shim
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Old 11-27-2010, 11:39 PM
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I really appreciate all off your feedback.

Just one more thing to cover. What is your advice on the best lifters, rods, springs, and rockers? hydraulic roller of course.

If anyone is interested i got most of my information from mr ericnova72 and this web site

http://www.dragzine.com/tech.../dart...-top-end-kits/

By the way im building this for a 72 chevelle resto mod. Arlington Texas car.

Thanks again!

Last edited by kertwood; 11-27-2010 at 11:46 PM.
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Old 11-28-2010, 12:24 AM
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I get all of my valvetrain parts from www.competitionproducts.com they are partnered with Howard's Cams, good folks, excellent quality and pricing.

Aluminum stud mount rockers - Scorpion, hands down the best, made in USA(Florida). If you want stainlessbody stud mount - Comp Cams or Crower. Shaft rockers - Probe, Crower, T&D, Jesel, Yella Terra(Australian, quite nice).

Howard's Cams has one of the best deals going on retro-fit hydraulic roller cams and lifters.
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Old 11-28-2010, 01:56 PM
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One good thing about this block is the top end is machined for OEM tie-bar style hydraulic roller lifters. So that means stay away from retro kits right?

The heads im looking at come pre assembled. So the only question left is what size rockers? 1.6? What length of rod? and why does this matter?

Should i buy bare heads and assemble or buy pre assembled? and why?
The top end valve train is still a big mystery.

Im trying to learn all i can.

Thanks.

Last edited by kertwood; 11-28-2010 at 02:02 PM.
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Old 11-28-2010, 02:24 PM
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I'd use a 1.6 rocker myself, to get all the lift you can get. Pushrod length cannot be determined before hand, the only way to do it right is to check it at assembly(or trial assembly) for correct goemetry(minimum sweep acrossed valve tip).

The block being machined will keep you from needing the retro lifters, but be aware that factory lifters have a lift limit or they will expose the oil band and loose pressure. I'm not sure of the actual figure or what possible aftermarket lifters may be available to sidestep the factory lifter problem, you'll have to search a bit on that.

I'd only buy the heads bare if you or someone you know has the tools to check and blueprint them, or if you have a local shop that can do it for you. Some need valve guide to stem clearancing(ream or hone) for correct fit.

Last edited by ericnova72; 11-28-2010 at 02:41 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 11-28-2010, 02:36 PM
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The assembled heads give me two options on spring size. Which one 1.437 duel or 1.550 duel? Does this play a big factor in rocker size and ratio. IF so what rocker size? what ratio?

I know everything has to match.

Last edited by kertwood; 11-28-2010 at 02:41 PM.
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Old 11-28-2010, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kertwood
The assembled heads give me two options on spring size. Which one 1.437 duel or 1.550 duel? Does this play a big factor in rocker size and ratio. IF so what rocker size? what ratio?

I know everything has to match.
Can't tell you for sure which spring without knowing the spring poundage specs, but 1.437" is normally hydro roller/solid flat tappet territory, and 1.550" is normally full solid roller beef.

For the hydro roller you are looking for 130-150 lbs seat/330-400lbs open pressures.
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Old 11-28-2010, 07:28 PM
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I have located 90% of parts for build thanks to ericknova72 and the web.

Im stuck on the cam choice. I found some that were close but no cigar.

Any suggested part #s

1. howards cams 180335-10?
2. comps cams mother tumpr?

Last edited by kertwood; 11-28-2010 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 11-28-2010, 07:57 PM
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I found two. Cant decide which one.

comp cams
1. xtreme energy xr294hr #08-443-8
2. xtreme energy xr3000hr #08-444-8

The second one is one the money with compression. Just dont know if that one would be cutting it too close?

Last edited by kertwood; 11-28-2010 at 08:05 PM.
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Old 11-28-2010, 10:03 PM
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I'd go with the second one you listed from Comp or the howards in the previous post if those were the only choices. Note that rpm ranges in catalog listings are based around the 350 cubic inch size(its the most common), your 400 will suck that duration right up and the cam will seem to have a lower powerband by about 500-700 rpm due to it feeding 50 more cubic inches.

If it were me, I would call Bullet Cams and get a custom grind spec'ed just for your application. Cost is only slightly more than an off-the-shelf cam but will have a much better result. Bullet is the old UltraDyne company, they are really good. I never use off the shelf for anything important anymore, just the grocery-getter stuff.
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Old 11-29-2010, 12:03 AM
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The bores on the SHP block will be .004"-.006" undersized, with the out-of-round making the difference the total in each cylinder. Boring to 4.125" will leave little to clean up the boring tears and such and honing it will require a GOOD honing machine. Boring to 4.145" or 4.155" isn't such a bad idea. The bores on the SHP blocks are quite thick and can take a .060" overbore (if necessary down the road) with ease and even more with no problems.

BTW, have the cam tunnel bores and main bores checked sizing and alignment.

Just to be sure.............

tom
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