Deep 2 groove short W/P pulley or serpentine? - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
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Old 01-23-2009, 11:02 AM
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Deep 2 groove short W/P pulley or serpentine?

I'm in a bit of a bind with my 75 Pontiac Astre with a 350, and a short water pump. My Summit stamped steel pulley broke last week while going through emissions. It's a dual groove unit, with one belt around the water pump/crank, and another running the water pump/crank/alternator. I like the extra belt around just the water pump as it's saved my engine numerous times when I fling the alternator belt, which is another issue I've had with this setup. Now since I need a new w/p pulley, I want to change the system. I was thinking of staying V-belt, I found a deep 2 groove crank pulley on Summit's site, but I have a heck of a time finding a deep 2 groove water pump pulley for a short pump. There's a Moroso billet design, but I don't really want to spend $180 on a single pulley. There's got to be another source... it's a SBC!!! I also don't really want to use a Z28 pulley, I want something that looks a little more trick. i.e. not painted steel. So where might I find one of these?

The other option I see is that March sells a 3-piece pulley kit that converts to a single serpentine belt for $205. How would this be on my car that regularly sees 7k rpm at the strip? Does the serpentine still throw belts? My alternator is mounted a bit far... outboard of the valvecover, since there is no better way to mount it for space issues. Will the length of the belt hurt this setup?

Thanks in advance, Josh.

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Old 01-23-2009, 11:22 AM
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Josh..........I've bought single pulleys from March without having to buy a set. Just check out their website and see what specific pulley you need and then just get that one. You may also want to just look on ebay. Serpentine belts are a way to go as well and they do help in the "throwing" the belt issue. Problem I have with them is if it goes, everything stops.
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Old 01-23-2009, 11:35 AM
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I've seen the single March pulleys on Summit's site... the only issue I have is that none of them explicitly says "deep groove", which is what I really need. Cost wise I'm fine with them, I just want to make sure I'm not gonna keep doing what I did with my cheap Summit pulley... throwing belts.

And I do like the serpentine a lot... except I don't know how they hold up at high RPMs. I was hoping someone on here might know.
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Old 01-23-2009, 04:30 PM
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Check out at Jeg's, Procomp Gilmer alt drive kit, PN PC2251. $159.99.
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Old 01-23-2009, 05:07 PM
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Short pumps aren't common which is why not many people make aftermarket pulleys. If you want something to hold you over, try marine parts. They still use short pumps.
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Old 01-23-2009, 06:39 PM
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You can use a serpentine belt system from a 87' V6 Chevy, water pump-alt-crank pulleys will bolt right up. Its how you drop a 350 into it using the same system.
Short pump, same as a vette.
I plan on putting one on my motor this spring, it helps keep the belt's on at high revs.
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Old 01-24-2009, 10:38 AM
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Thanks for the replies.

1Bad80-Thanks for the suggestion on the 4.3 pulley setup, but with the mount kit in this car, it's near impossible to use anything other than Hooker header mount alternator kit. The Transdapt mounts use the water pump bolts, and shoots straight across the front of the head.

And I will look into the Gilmer drive. Cool looking setup for sure. So with the Gilmer, even though my alternator will be spaced outside the head laterally, with that length of the belt, it should still stop the belt throwing? The only drawback to that setup is that the picture they show looks like a belt that would be shorter than what I could use, so running to the parts store to trial fit belts isn't too possible with the Gilmer belt. I'll look into it though.
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Old 01-24-2009, 01:54 PM
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Wait a minute here.
Serpentine systems turn the water pump in reverse rotation.

This is not as simple as just swapping pulleys.
note that reverse rotation water pumps have different pulley hole spacing and regualar pulleys won't bolt onto them.
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Old 01-24-2009, 05:45 PM
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YES it is the same rotation, go look before you shoot it down, I put the SAME pulleys back on the 350 after replacing the V6 motor.
My neighbor done the same on his PONTIAC motor.
Like I said, it goes around the crank-alternator and water pump the same as a V belt. Bets taken anytime !
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Old 01-24-2009, 10:23 PM
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4.3 to 350

I just put a 1989 4.3 serpentine system on to my 1970 something 350. The water pump is reverse rotation. The 4.3 water pump or a 1989 or newer 350 pump will do it. The trick is to use the whole deal from a 4.3 including power steering pump etc. Oh yeah don,t borrow some f,ed up Chinese power steering pump pulley puller like I did and destroy one pump and pulley. I ordered up a no slip Lisle tool and the pulley went on smoother than whipped cream in your boot. LOL
Clint
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Old 01-25-2009, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastrehotrods
Thanks for the replies.

1Bad80-Thanks for the suggestion on the 4.3 pulley setup, but with the mount kit in this car, it's near impossible to use anything other than Hooker header mount alternator kit. The Transdapt mounts use the water pump bolts, and shoots straight across the front of the head.

And I will look into the Gilmer drive. Cool looking setup for sure. So with the Gilmer, even though my alternator will be spaced outside the head laterally, with that length of the belt, it should still stop the belt throwing? The only drawback to that setup is that the picture they show looks like a belt that would be shorter than what I could use, so running to the parts store to trial fit belts isn't too possible with the Gilmer belt. I'll look into it though.
It's a cogged belt. I would think it would be pretty hard hard to throw a cogged belt.
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Old 01-25-2009, 08:24 AM
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address the problem directly:

mis-aligned pulleys throws a belt...
(find a long true straight edge and measure that all pulleys are on the same exact plane,,shims/washers/whatever to correct it)
wrong belt "V" demensions versus actual pulley "V" throws a belt,,,different brands are different demensions
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Old 01-25-2009, 09:49 AM
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He specifically asked about serpentine in post #1.

Serpentine by definition means the water pump turns in reverse rotation.

There are multi-V flat belt systems available for conventional rotation pumps, but they are NOT SERPENTINE.
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Old 01-25-2009, 04:39 PM
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Another opinion again,
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoTFrenzel
He specifically asked about serpentine in post #1.

Serpentine by definition means the water pump turns in reverse rotation.

There are multi-V flat belt systems available for conventional rotation pumps, but they are NOT SERPENTINE.
SHOW me where it's described in writing from a notable source NOT SERPENTINE because of conventional rotation.
GO look at a 87' V6 motor and then tell me about it.

It means the BELT TYPE. . . . NOT just Reverse rotation, they come either way of rotation, it's designed that way for packaging & driving all the equipment on 1 belt on the same plane instead of different belts.
I have some C5 Vette alternators same year & have different rotation because of power option's.

Just so you don't question anymore without doing some reading, you know what they say about opinion's, ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpentine_belt
Serpentine belt
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Serpentine belt on belt tensioner.A serpentine belt is a single, continuous belt used to drive multiple peripheral devices in an automotive engine, such as an alternator, power steering pump, water pump, A/C compressor, air pump, etc. The belt may also be guided by an idler pulley and/or a belt tensioner. The serpentine belt was invented by Jim Vance while working for the Gates Rubber Company and first used by Ford Motor Company for the 1979 Mustang.

It is more efficient than the older multiple belt system. By using a single, wider belt instead of multiple, thinner belts, the belt may be put under increased tension without stretching. Higher tension reduces slip, which increases belt life and mechanical efficiency. Reduced slip can allow the use of lower-ratio pulleys; this reduces the load on the engine, increasing fuel economy and available power. Additionally, it is easier for the driver to know when the belt has broken, since this will cause the steering resistance to suddenly increase on vehicles equipped with hydraulic power steering sometimes, if the vehicles power steering system isn't linked elsewhere.[citation needed] With multiple belt systems, if a single belt breaks, such as the alternator belt, the driver may not realize that there is a problem before the engine becomes damaged.

A serpentine belt also is much easier to maintain and replace, since there is no need to remove multiple belts in order to replace one of them.

The drawback of this single belt is that if the belt breaks, the vehicle loses all of its peripheral devices. Some vehicles use two serpentine belts for their system, such as the 95�99 DOHC Nissan Maxima and many BMWs.

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Old 01-26-2009, 08:35 AM
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I guess it's my mess, so I'd better chime in.

The serpentine setup I'm using will NOT reverse the water pump rotation. This is because there are only three pulleys, and it's not necessary to have the complex routing of a vehicle with say 6 pulleys.

like this.

So I guess I'm going to place my order for the March serpentine setup right now. I really like the Gilmer, but judging by the alternator location in the pic, the belt will be the wrong length. And at $30 a pop for the belts, via mail order only, I don't want that hassle. With the serpentine setup, I can get belts at the local parts store anytime.
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