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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 11-25-2012, 02:53 PM
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Well made some headway today. Started the engine up to operating temps. Shut it down and starting pulling spark plugs and valve covers so I could adjust the valves.

I FOUND MY PROBLEM!
#2 cylinder has some issues.


Broken pushrod and 2 rocker arms off. No wonder it ran like crap. It also split the pushrod guide in 3 places. It marred the edge of the valve tip but I think it is ok. A couple of the other rocker arms on this side were very loose. SO I guess when I adjusted the valves I obviously did it incorrect. So I am going to pull the intake to get the rest of the pushrod.

I hit the intake valve using a block of wood and hammer and it went down and back up fine so I am hoping it is not damaged.

When I pull the intake I am going to pull each lifter out individually and see if any are damaged. Hopefully this will only need a pushrod and new guide.

Thanks to all those who have been giving advice.

Bret

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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 11-25-2012, 03:05 PM
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put some roller rockers on it,while its apart
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 11-25-2012, 04:04 PM
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Yikes, well you took the guess work out of the issue right there.
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Old 11-25-2012, 06:09 PM
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When you put the push rods back in it make sure it loose so you can turn the engine over and make sure the valve is not hanging. It may have been rusted shut and not moved when the cam came around. On first start up after setting.
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:44 PM
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Well I was adjusted the valves per the link CDminter59 posted. I put it on TDC and adjusted both valves on #1. Went to turn the over till the #8 intake valve was at full lift so I could adjust #5 and noticed that the #8 intake was bearly going down. Skipped thought maybe it was really lose and the same problem with #7 intake. It went down a little then up a little then down.

So I pulle the intake and found 6 bad lifters. One is not concave yet but it had a really bad burr and I had a hell of a time getting it out. Had to pull all of them out with pliers.

So with this much material gone from the lifters I am assuming that all the bearings are probably bad and I am looking at a total rebuild again.

I'm not sure what happened. Did I adjust the lifters to tight and cause this failure. If anything I thought I had them to loose. But this explains why the valvetrain was so noisy and the rattling I heard.

I will definately say this is the last hot rod cam I will ever run. If I rebuild I am putting everything back to stock!
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 11-29-2012, 03:58 PM
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are you going to put the crank back to stock also?
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 11-29-2012, 04:04 PM
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No I'm going to keep the crank, rods, and possibly heads.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:19 PM
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then put in an appropriate cam to match the bigger engine.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by vinniekq2 View Post
then put in an appropriate cam to match the bigger engine.
Some of the larger hot rod cams dont last too long. But rollers Cams will last a lot longer.

Rotating asembly is probably still good but bearing will still need to be replaced. Also will need to tear down to clean it all out. Be sure to put a magnet in the oil pan when youput it back together.

I think you will need to go with a cam large enough to deal with the compression stock style cams will be major problems.

Or buy a junk yard stocker with low miles and go. Probalby sell the good parts left on ebay for a few bucks. Or take your time to rebuild the hot motor. I get mad at stuff and just got to let it sit till im ready to knock it out or it just frutrates me.
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:03 PM
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I realize I can't run a true stock cam. But if I keep the Edelbrock heads what is the smallest cam I can run? The Summit 1103 that Fbird suggested.

I'm not mad at it. I just have started to steer more towards stock style engines from the hot rod engines I use to love. I still love them just don't want to mess with it all the time. I don't even drive this car anymore because the tires are dry rotted from sitting outside for 8 years, the th350 has no second gear and the engine wouldn't even putt down the street. If I could have it all back like it was when I got it that would be awesome. But the cost of that would be too much right now.

I got excited when I found the broken pushrod as I thought I could get it running again for about $25 but that isn't the case anymore.

I have thought several times about parting out the entire car. I have a Camaro SS and now a 64 Chevy stepside. The Caprice is on the back burner. Its my first car and I just know that if I get rid of it someday I am going to regret it. I've had it since 95' and it was my moms car she bought it in 86'. So its been around since I was 8 years old. My wife even likes the car its what I was driving when were first dating. It died at a stop light on our first date and she had to help my push it over to the curb. LOL
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 11-29-2012, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bj383ss View Post
Well made some headway today. Started the engine up to operating temps. Shut it down and starting pulling spark plugs and valve covers so I could adjust the valves.

I FOUND MY PROBLEM!
#2 cylinder has some issues.


Broken pushrod and 2 rocker arms off. No wonder it ran like crap. It also split the pushrod guide in 3 places. It marred the edge of the valve tip but I think it is ok. A couple of the other rocker arms on this side were very loose. SO I guess when I adjusted the valves I obviously did it incorrect. So I am going to pull the intake to get the rest of the pushrod.

I hit the intake valve using a block of wood and hammer and it went down and back up fine so I am hoping it is not damaged.

When I pull the intake I am going to pull each lifter out individually and see if any are damaged. Hopefully this will only need a pushrod and new guide.

Thanks to all those who have been giving advice.

Bret
This makes more sense, there wasn't anything about your build that otherwise would lead to unusual problems, by today’s standards this is really a pretty moderate build and the XE268 isn't all that hot of a cam. This combo should be a good sturdy street engine. I get the feeling you ride it pretty hard which will take the life out of the motor pretty quickly. I don't think your rocker selection was up to the task and perhaps other parts as well. I consider roller tip rockers with ball fulcrum to be a complete waste of money. The problem with rockers is the fulcrum more so than the tip. The ball and socket gets really hot with high spring pressures, valve float, and high RPMs. There isn't any way of really dealing with these temps and friction in the fulcrum other than a fully rollerized rocker. Grooved balls will let you push the edge a little but the XE286 does need a pretty good spring. You did match the Comp recommended (should be required) spring kit with this cam, didn't you? This is big time important and often overlooked when people buy aftermarket heads with an included "racer springs" by someone's definition who are selling the heads not the cam. My best recommendation when buying aftermarket heads it to purchase them bare, use a known good quality valve and use the springs and retainers sold by the cam manufacturer unless you’re sufficiently knowledgeable in the rocket science of valve train dynamics to go off on your own. I find there are damn few people building engines that are that good. This takes expertise and pieces of really expensive development equipment the average guy and many if not most equipment purveyors just don't have. This is a place where you need to pay like Goldylocks, not too soft and not too stiff, just right. Too soft will float the valve train which pounds the parts to pieces when they snap closed. Too stiff and the pressures just wear everything out too quickly. The XE268 does not need a fast leak down lifter, keeping these things tracking the lobe quietly is a problem. You're walking a really fine line between pumping the lifter holding the valve open or pounding the tappet into the lobe.

When you start getting up around .5 inch lift you also need to consider a stepped push rod guide to give more support closer to the rocker as that end with high lift is going to move a considerable distance from the point of support so any deflection of the push-rod will become increasingly magnified where it interfaces on the rocker as this distance increases. That will cause the rocker to want to wander off the side of the valve stem.

I'm not a fan of the simplified method of adjusting valves where you are skipping cylinder to cylinder and side to side doing multiple adjustments at certain crankshaft stations, this especially gets to be risky as the cam durations become longer simply because it is difficult to hit TDC accurately unless you go though the degree wheel and positive stop drill for every adjusting station which is a huge amount of work these simplified adjusting methods were developed to avoid for the flat rate mechanic. I highly recommend that one start at number one cylinder with both valves closed on the top of the power stroke and make you initial adjustments here then rotate the crank through the firing order in order and adjust each as they come up on the firing position. That insures the tappets are not on any part of a lobe. Where one uses older design performance cams with really long ramps leading to and from the action this is a big time problem to get accurate with simplified method. Cams like the XE, the Voodoo, and other similar modern cams where the ramps are short and the action quick are less likely to cause alignment problems on set up but if you're off TDC too much you will have big trouble as these cams come on the lobe really fast.

Bogie
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 11-29-2012, 05:36 PM
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I think if your cam was in the 440 lift area with a wide lda and mild duration,a near smooth idle and wide rpm range would be nice
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 11-29-2012, 05:48 PM
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Bogie I do have the matched springs. The Roller stamped rockers were just a quick fix until I could buy full roller rockers but I never got around to it. They are 1.6 ratio though I think this also might have been a bad choice.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:06 PM
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Bogie I do have the matched springs. The Roller stamped rockers were just a quick fix until I could buy full roller rockers but I never got around to it. They are 1.6 ratio though I think this also might have been a bad choice.
How much money are you working with on this project. I am thinking you could get a cheap long block from the junk yard and stick your intake and carb on it and be driving in a days work. Might as well get a th700r4 while your at it. I got a feeling that combo would make you very happy for the least amount of cash. Then you can put the big motor aside until you got the cash to do it up right. Also 700 has little more punch down low and a lot better gas milage. That part will atleast pay for it self.

I have learned from many builds not to worry about a motor if your goal is a car. If your racing then its all about the motor but if its just to get to work. Some of the badest rides out there have stock motors or just good exhuast and intake. The value and the chance you will be able to hang on to it will go up a lot if its running. when you got to move in a hurry the yard art get sacrificed first. I let one of my fav cars go for this reason. Didnt think i was moving but my job changed and in two weeks i was gone car was tow to the junk yard... I wont say what type of car dont want to get yeld at for junking a classic. It wasnt that classic back then lol.

Hope it all works out for you.
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old 11-29-2012, 07:46 PM
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Hcompton that is not a bad idea. I really like the 700r4 idea. I will have to do some leg work. I don't really now any good junkyards in my area

Bret
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