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Old 01-16-2011, 10:34 AM
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diagnosing engine ticking

My 351w (Jasper 365HP class II) idles ok without loud ticking cold and hot.

351W ticks loudly following long interstate drives when driving around town.

Been leisurely fighting the tick since engine installed years ago.

Headers have leaked off and on. Have JBA 3/8" flange headers now.
Any ideas to detect headers leaks?

Have rollers on rocker tips.

Hydrualic valves are one of my suspects. I am considering changing to solid lifters since so many hydraulic lifter variables. What is the harm caused by installing new solid lifters on a used hydraulic cam shaft???

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Old 01-16-2011, 03:18 PM
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I quit using jasper engines years ago, as they started off well enough, but soon started doing things on the cheap, like regrinding cams.I mean cams of all things. So I would suspect they reused something in the valve train that was refurbished poorly or was borderline as far as being servicable .
As far as locating a leak I use a short piece of say 5/16 brake line with a 2-3 foot piece of rubber hose (fuel line works good) and shove the hose on the end of the steel line. Then you can put the hose end in your ear and probe the area in question with the steel end and locate the leak. Trust me it works well. The sound will transit through the hose and line even better than two cans and a string.
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Old 01-16-2011, 03:25 PM
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you are not suppose to run solid lifters on a hyd flat tappet cam but you can run hyd lifters on a solid cam. JMO I have seen it done before but don't think it lasted very long that way, someone might say different but this is my thought on it anyway.


Cole
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Old 01-16-2011, 06:28 PM
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Using solid lifter on hydraulic flat tappet cam; ok some sources, bad other sources. Suppose it depends on specific application.

My specs:
http://www.jasperengines.com/pdf/Cla...%20hp%2008.pdf
Guess that my cam is challanging for hydraulic lifters?

Don't really have a handle on picking correct hydraulic lifters. I've read about one that has very limited expansion thus properties similar to solid.
I should look for that one I guess.
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Old 01-31-2011, 12:40 AM
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engine noise tail chasing

My pressure estimates based on OEM gauge(ordering VDO gauge soon):
Cold idle=50-60psi
Hot idle=32psi
3000RPM cruise=40psi
Oil PanTemp=165-180F
Head temp=215F
Intake @ Tstat=195F

Aerification dipstick test=pass; oil looks perfect after 90 mile drive.

Missing galley plug review:

1/2" crankshaft/camshaft galley plug=pass; 10gpm of 124 cSf oil would produce roughly only 4psi resistance in a 2ft run of 1/2" pipe. I suspect gauge would show less than 10psi hot idle.

3/4" lifter valley galley plug=pass;
Figure less than 8psi resistance if plug were missing. I can't see getting 40psi hot cruise if 3/4" galley plug missing.

1/2" lifter galley test=likely pass
I suspect the lifters will produce a fair amount of pressure drop since they sit in middle of galley. Can't pass it based on oil pressure.
I think the front passenger or front driver lifters would likely be oil starved depending on which side plug missing. I suspect lifters would tick on cold startup but they don't.

Planning to pull vc and do more stethoscope stuff. Couldn't hear anything last time.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:06 AM
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Missing galley plug test

Car sat for several days.
Pulled VC.
Started engine and rear most pushrod pumped oil first.
Less than a minute all pushrods delivering oil.
Shutoff engine.
Pulled coil wire.
Cranked starter and all pushrods delivering oil with starter only.
I don't think starter would turn pump fast enough to flood all rockers w/o galley plug.
I'm satisfied all galley plugs installed.

I am wondering if the pushrod can kiss Manley guide plates and make noise when engine hot (351W is quite when cold)?

Maybe Comp Cam Magnum roller tip rockers make noise when hot?

Note: When I changed oil I used Mob 1 15W-50 and engine was quite; didn't notice noise for pretty long time. Suppose I could change the liquid gold again.
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Old 02-01-2011, 05:03 AM
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I believe what you are hearing is being caused by a lifter w/a faster bleed-down rate than the others in that set.

Lifter components are nowadays computer-selected. This wasn't always done this way. The possibility exists that, IF the lifters use "hand selected" components (or are offshore), the lifter's components were on the loose side. Or if "computer selected", that the tolerances "stacked up" in such a way as to cause a high bleed rate.

Even a small bit of foreign material can cause erratic bleed rates, and this CAN be temp dependant. If it is worrisome enough to have you considering swapping out the lifters (don't do this, BTW), then it might be worth a try to isolate the exact lifter at fault and simply remove and disassemble it for a thorough cleaning.

The deal on using solid lifters on a hydraulic cam is a bad idea because the hydraulic cam lobes lack "take-up ramps".

Using hydraulic lifters on a solid cam profile will work, but basically defeats the purpose of having a solid cam in the first place.
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Old 02-01-2011, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
I believe what you are hearing is being caused by a lifter w/a faster bleed-down rate than the others in that set.

Even a small bit of foreign material can cause erratic bleed rates, and this CAN be temp dependant. If it is worrisome enough to have you considering swapping out the lifters (don't do this, BTW), then it might be worth a try to isolate the exact lifter at fault and simply remove and disassemble it for a thorough cleaning.
Don't think it's one or two lifters; ticking frequency too great.

Listened to about 50 engine sound videos. Many youtube engines made more racket than mine. I have about 7,000 miles on the engine and everything checks out excellent. Most likely I'm expecting too much; performance engine and quite too.

I suspect the roller tip rockers. Have read countless posts complaining of roller rocker noise. Can't find solution to noisy roller tip rockers???

Frustrating...so many threads w/o answers.

Why engine louder hot? Viscosity? Thermal expansion?

I don't know what Comp Cam Magnum roller tip rocker components make tick?

World Products specifies to plug unused header bolt sockets. Mine are not plugged. I calculated max pressure build roughly 98psi; that would exert total of 10lbs lifting force per hole. I suspect the small volume of air would seep out w/o lifting header flange. Not sure.

I have two theories:

1. Change rocker ratio from 1.6 to 1.5; this will detune cam and reduce noise.

2. Use shaft mount rockers; deletion of pushrod guide may reduce chatter.
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Last edited by 001mustang; 02-01-2011 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 02-01-2011, 01:32 PM
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"Noise" is so subjective- what's loud or annoying to one will not be bothersome to another.

Comp XE cams and others w/fast ramps will make more noise than other cams. Combine that w/the roller tips and that may be the noise you hear.

Roller tips w/o roller trunnion are a waste of money, IMO.

I believe you'd be just as well off in your situation w/true roller rockers- trunnion and all- rather than the expense of a shaft rocker set-up. Switching the ratio could help as well, but the only way to know for sure will be to do it and see.

Sometimes when there's a valve train noise caused by a loose/worn roller tip, putting thumb pressure on the tip of the rocker over the valve w/the engine running will quiet it down. You have to run the engine w/a cover off to tell, though- and this can get messy in a hurry.
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Old 02-01-2011, 03:11 PM
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Same ticking noise too, but only when engine warm.

Not trying to hi jack thread but i am experiencing same issues with my 383 with Trickflow heads and full roller rockers. No noise on start up but as engine gets warmer it starts that ticking noise. The techs at Trickflow tell me that if it sounds like a sewing machine than that is the way roller rockers are supposed to sound. I hear tin valve covers do a horrible job of masking noise also. I also agree that the XE series cams may also add to this problem as well. I too thought maybe my pushrods were rubbing up against guideplates too and making noise or making noise worse. Maybe it is just the inherent sound of roller rockers?
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Old 02-01-2011, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dromero5
Not trying to hi jack thread but i am experiencing same issues with my 383 with Trickflow heads and full roller rockers. No noise on start up but as engine gets warmer it starts that ticking noise. The techs at Trickflow tell me that if it sounds like a sewing machine than that is the way roller rockers are supposed to sound. I hear tin valve covers do a horrible job of masking noise also. I also agree that the XE series cams may also add to this problem as well. I too thought maybe my pushrods were rubbing up against guideplates too and making noise or making noise worse. Maybe it is just the inherent sound of roller rockers?
i switched from tin vc to cast aluminum; noise is the same.
maybe it is the inherent sound of roller rockers...but what is causing the noise....hmmmm?

i'd rather live w/ noise than switch to non-roller rocker.
just curious..sound from hot expanded roller w/ hot thin oil or what....

would sound be less w/ milder cam?
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Old 02-01-2011, 05:36 PM
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You can try setting the lifter preload at zero plus 1/4; zero plus 1/2; 3/4; etc., out to the max recommended by the manufacturer to see if there was a material difference in the sound.

If no diff, chalk it up to your combo. Like I said, bothersome to one isn't to another.
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Old 02-01-2011, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
Roller tips w/o roller trunnion are a waste of money, IMO.

I believe you'd be just as well off in your situation w/true roller rockers- trunnion and all- rather than the expense of a shaft rocker set-up. Switching the ratio could help as well, but the only way to know for sure will be to do it and see.

Sometimes when there's a valve train noise caused by a loose/worn roller tip, putting thumb pressure on the tip of the rocker over the valve w/the engine running will quiet it down. You have to run the engine w/a cover off to tell, though- and this can get messy in a hurry.
Won't take much to talk me out of $1000 rockers.

I'm looking at geometry now in "attempt" to determine if changing from 1.6 to 1.5 on windsor sr heads is bolt in.
Don't mind taking a hi rpm performance hit to gain durability and maybe noise reduction. Would have same affect as installing a milder cam; less lift and lower valve acceleration.

I'm already planning to do a lifter lash finger shock test once I decapitate old vc. I will add your thumb roller test as well. Think I have to bring oil pool temp to roughly 160F before I hear any noise.
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Old 02-01-2011, 05:39 PM
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thing i found that tick are header gaskets, clog push rods, and dead lifters
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Old 02-01-2011, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mafiacustomz
thing i found that tick are header gaskets, clog push rods, and dead lifters
know any tricks for checking header leaks?

would headers leak only when engine hot?
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