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Old 04-09-2012, 09:19 PM
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When you take it apart, to clean the block properly you can measure the piston pin height.
I bet you'll find it is 1.54". The last set of those pistons I used were 1.54"

piston Pin height ='s the distance from top of pin hole to piston top + 1/2 (half) the pin hole diameter.

Clean it all good and check the rings end gaps , bearings clearances (at least with plastigauge) and rod big end diameters. Reassemble correctly with a good torque wrench.
Use only engine oil and GM EOS as a assembly lube. But put moly cam lube on the cam lobes.

use a felpro 1094 gasket to get a .040" ish quench clearance if that what you are after.

I use this stuff to aid engine break in and protect cam+lifters etc from scuffing
It helps the rings break in as well, without scuffing etc.
it works.... leave it in for 1000 miles

www.molyslip.com Moly slip E oil supplement.

Auto trans fluid works good as a final wipe clean for cylinder walls
but then lube the cylinders with the motor oil+ GM EOS
(after you scrub the whole block with hot soapy water and blow dry w compressed air)

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Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 04-09-2012 at 09:27 PM.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2012, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
When you take it apart, to clean the block properly you can measure the piston pin height.
I bet you'll find it is 1.54". The last set of those pistons I used were 1.54"

piston Pin height ='s the distance from top of pin hole to piston top + 1/2 (half) the pin hole diameter.

Clean it all good and check the rings end gaps , bearings clearances (at least with plastigauge) and rod big end diameters. Reassemble correctly with a good torque wrench.
Use only engine oil and GM EOS as a assembly lube. But put moly cam lube on the cam lobes.

use a felpro 1094 gasket to get a .040" ish quench clearance if that what you are after.

I use this stuff to aid engine break in and protect cam+lifters etc from scuffing
It helps the rings break in as well, without scuffing etc.
it works.... leave it in for 1000 miles

www.molyslip.com Moly slip E oil supplement.

Auto trans fluid works good as a final wipe clean for cylinder walls
but then lube the cylinders with the motor oil+ GM EOS
(after you scrub the whole block with hot soapy water and blow dry w compressed air)
hmmm I think that gasket is a little too thin. Depending on the cylinder it would yield a squish of .028 - .042".

Thanks for the feedback about the fluids. I will add them to my shopping list.
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Old 04-09-2012, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Surfer
hmmm I think that gasket is a little too thin. Depending on the cylinder it would yield a squish of .028 - .042".

Thanks for the feedback about the fluids. I will add them to my shopping list.
Then use victor 5746 .026" thick with a 4.1" bore.
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Old 04-10-2012, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Surfer
OK I re-checked the numbers using a different technique and they all came back very similar if not the same. In fact when I average the first set of numbers, the second set larger by .001" on both left and right cylinder banks.

Left bank average is .022-.023"
Right bank average is .019-.020"

If the machinist took .020 off and the pistons are now known to be 1.548" CH, then that leaves a calculated clearance of .017". Oddly enough, the only cylinder to do this is the one that has the replacement rod. It is constant on the fore and aft measurement.






I know this probably seems trivial to you. But I am newbie and the only way I am going to learn how to build a proper engine is to sweat the details. If I don't pay attention now, then what good is it for my next engine? Perhaps part of the learning curve is selecting a good machinist and dealing with the ensuing disaster.
Welcome to the world of going nuts, You'll discover that we do a lot of measuring with a micrometer while cutting with an ax kind of stuff.

Yes finding a reliable machinist is one of the most fundamental efforts. With that are the tools to measure everything, given places like Harbor Freight it's a lot less expensive to by precision measuring tools than it was 50-60 years ago. These Chinese tools probably don't hold up for a life time but they are pretty accurate and will last for the sometime builder till you get going and can afford the high buck stuff.

Lots of good books out there on engine blue printing which will take you through the processes that insure an accurate and quality build. As an example; this book by Reher-Morrision is pricey but very current, it is written as text book so it goes in deliberate learning phases http://www.amazon.com/Reher-Morrison.../dp/0972343288 . Consider an investment in your automotive library to be as important as tools as it feeds your brain which is the tool you'll use the most often of all.

Bogie
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Old 04-10-2012, 01:01 PM
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Thanks for the book suggestion, Bogie.

I went back to the machine shop over lunch and discussed my gripe list. There were about 8 sub-par items. So I will be bringing the block back to them for correction. One of the items is that the decking operation destroyed an old helicoil cylinder head bolt hole. They are also going to measure the piston compression height as well.

They keep insisting I am asking tou much and that I am trying to build a nascar motor. I keep saying no, I need something between a granny grocery getter and nascar. We gotta find a good average between.

I appreciate all who have replied and are helping me out. Hopefully everything turns out OK on trip #2.
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Old 04-10-2012, 03:47 PM
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Just remember you are the one who told them to just knock .020" off the decks.
ALL this measuring and blueprinting etc etc takes time and costs money if you don't do it yourself.

You should have measured this stuff for yourself, first. And assembled the motor
yourself.

They will probabily want to charge you for at least some of the extra time and machining to correct this stuff. I;d be more concerned that the rods are resized correctly etc.

Your deck measurements seem a bit out of wack thou.

You need to measure the piston pin height and piston top consistantcy before hanging the machine shop out to dry on this.

Those H345 pistons a low cost rebuilders and are not that precise.
Stock blocks are never right or square. You got what you told them to do and what you paid for. (deck .020" off the decks)

Welcome to the world of high performance engine building.

This is why I do all my own cleaning and assembly. I check everything.
I pay my machinist for machining, not babysitting me.
(and yup sometimes I have to make a 2nd trip the the shop)
(I measure my own stuff and keep it real simple for them, to keep labour time costs to a minimum.)

A hint: When starting a build I always measure the pistons deck heights of the stock assembly before disassembling the old motor.
Then measure the pin heights of the 8 old pistons.
now you got a clue where the block decks are at.

from looking at your deck measurements I would look at all 8 rods for straightness and twist and all 8 piston crowns for consistence..

or bang the mic on the work bench and try again LOL

Again welcome to the real world of high performance engine building.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 04-10-2012 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 04-11-2012, 02:12 AM
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Have you considered the fact you keep getting different numbers when you check that perhaps your measuring apparatus or technique is the cause of all your grief?

Have you measured the deck heights from the crank centerline using a jig meant to support the weight of the block on a surface plate with a ground rod the exact size of your mains? Was any of this equipment calibrated to a standard?

What I'm getting at is you are measuring with assembled components with designed in clearances to permit proper running operation but your expecting measurements closer than 0.002" per bank?

Your chasing your tail dude.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Surfer
OK I re-checked the numbers using a different technique and they all came back very similar if not the same. In fact when I average the first set of numbers, the second set larger by .001" on both left and right cylinder banks.

Left bank average is .022-.023"
Right bank average is .019-.020"

If the machinist took .020 off and the pistons are now known to be 1.548" CH, then that leaves a calculated clearance of .017". Oddly enough, the only cylinder to do this is the one that has the replacement rod. It is constant on the fore and aft measurement.






I know this probably seems trivial to you. But I am newbie and the only way I am going to learn how to build a proper engine is to sweat the details. If I don't pay attention now, then what good is it for my next engine? Perhaps part of the learning curve is selecting a good machinist and dealing with the ensuing disaster.
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Old 04-11-2012, 03:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Surfer
OK I re-checked the numbers using a different technique and they all came back very similar if not the same. In fact when I average the first set of numbers, the second set larger by .001" on both left and right cylinder banks.

Left bank average is .022-.023"
Right bank average is .019-.020"

If the machinist took .020 off and the pistons are now known to be 1.548" CH, then that leaves a calculated clearance of .017". Oddly enough, the only cylinder to do this is the one that has the replacement rod. It is constant on the fore and aft measurement.






I know this probably seems trivial to you. But I am newbie and the only way I am going to learn how to build a proper engine is to sweat the details. If I don't pay attention now, then what good is it for my next engine? Perhaps part of the learning curve is selecting a good machinist and dealing with the ensuing disaster.
Nothing is trivial. As far as choosing a machinist pick the guy who who answers all your questions. A bad machinist will tell you that if he answered your questions you'll know what he knows. A really good machinist will tell you anything you want to hear because if you could learn all he knows during a 20 minute conversation, you'd be competing with him.
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