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Old 06-16-2006, 10:59 PM
E.T. divided by $ spent= Speed
 
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Diesel engine oil,assembly lube and flat tappet cams

I've been reading abit about useing diesel engine oil as a better protectant for flat tappet cams after reading a post on here few weeks ago.
Guess it has more zinc ZDDP I think they called it?And found out that the govt put a limit on zinc in engine oil a few yrs ago which is a probable cause to cam failures in recent years.
Anyways just curious but would it be of any benifit to switch over to diesel/commercial oil on an engine that has allready had the cam breakin and has a few hours on it.Or would what ever damage that would have occured allready have started and just progressively get worse??
Where does the magority of cam were start in breakin or is it a gradual thing?
I allways heard about Competition cams having a higher failer rate and allways chaulked it up to there red liquid assembly lube,which dripps off and would prolly be gone if the motor wasn't fired within days of the cam install.When I installed my cam I used Crane's grey graphite paste and whatever 10W-40 I had around,no EOS or that kinda thing.
And whats the gig with EOS?Is it just oil treatment and is it really nessasary if your using a thick assembly lube paste?I've allwasy just used the Crane paste and 10W-40 and never had a problem on any of my old motors.
I'm just wondering some of your thoughts on Oil and assembly lube and cam failures,caused by this.

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Old 06-17-2006, 09:11 AM
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I've used Moroso's assembly paste and Rotella 30wt for several years and have not had a lobe failure, during break-in, since. The timeline coincides with recent news of the oil industry changing it's formulation for road going automotive oils.

Many moons ago I noticed a serious decline in the quality of the lifters that came with the cam kits I purchased and started using Speed Pro HT817 lifters with aftermarket cams. This also coincided with manufacturers swithing to hyd. roller cams in production engines, the depletion of OEM quality stock and the offshore production of new flat tappet lifters.

What a co-inkydink. Hotrod magazine recently published an article with info from reasonably creditable sources that confirmed my suspicions.

The best advice I can offer to anyone building a new engine is to use a factory roller cam block or just pay more for retro-fit hyd roller lifters and cams. It's just one less thing to worry about while you monitor oil pressure, water temperature, set timing and fuel mixture on a new engine.


Larry
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Old 06-17-2006, 11:33 AM
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I agree, the days running a flat tappet cam are ending, between the oil and the new lifters the most economical solution is to go roller.. not to say a flat tappet wont work, but these days it's a risk, and I dont forsee these type problems going away, so If you ask me, I would tell you somehow some way, reconfigure your budget to allow a Hdy roller cam into your budget.. but that is my opinion..


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Old 06-17-2006, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldknock

Many moons ago I noticed a serious decline in the quality of the lifters that came with the cam kits I purchased and started using Speed Pro HT817 lifters with aftermarket cams.

This also coincided with manufacturers swithing to hyd. roller cams in production engines, the depletion of OEM quality stock and the offshore production of new flat tappet lifters.

What a co-inkydink. Hotrod magazine recently published an article with info from reasonably creditable sources that confirmed my suspicions.

The best advice I can offer to anyone building a new engine is to use a factory roller cam block or just pay more for retro-fit hyd roller lifters and cams.
Absolutely fascinating information! I have read about difficulty obtaining tappet but never knew the reason.

Are Speed Pro tappets domestically manufactured?
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Old 06-17-2006, 09:25 PM
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I'm fairly certain that all of the U.S. made low volume tappets for oddball engines have been sold and only the offshore stuff is available. The SBC & SBF lifters are still available, from Speed Pro, with hardened faces and work fairly well. I'm not sure of their manufacturing location though.


Larry
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Old 06-18-2006, 02:17 AM
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What has been your experience(s) with cam manufacturers of late as to their wanting you to use their tappets (cam and kit) with their cams? Obviously they do not manufacture their own and source them from (IMO) questionable off-shore sources.

Without going into the argument of the out-sourcing of our once excellent manufacturing abilities, they should be still be manufactured to the standards our manufacturers were once held to. I guess with the non-use of flat tappets in modern cars, current suppliers are not held to once excellent industry standards.

It's enough to piss-off the Pope...
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Old 06-18-2006, 03:00 AM
aka Duke of URL
 
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While Carousing With My Browser This A.M.

Seems I cried into my Cheerios too soon...

Quote:
Flat Tappet Lifter Selection – Choose Carefully!

In addition to these engine modifications, make certain you purchase high-quality lifters. Most lifters look alike, but you don’t really know where they were produced. “Imported” flat tappets often times use inferior lifter castings and DO NOT deliver the durability of COMP Cams® high-quality, US-built lifters. COMP Cams® lifters are built to strict diameter and radius tolerances and designed to fit precisely within their lifter bores. This ensures the lifter rotates properly and decreases the potential for failure. Additionally, COMP Cams® Flat Tappet Lifters have the correct oil band depth and location to properly regulate the internal oiling of your engine.
Sourced -COMP CAMS TECH BULLETIN-Flat Tappet Camshafts-
_______________________________________

May also be of interest;

Tappet and Lubrication discussion from another forum
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Quote:
guest
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:47 pm Post subject: camshaft break in specifically flat tappet stuff


i have never had a cam wipe out in over twenty years . untill recently ! there is a definate problem with current lifters ! i used up all my eaton lifters three months ago , (i had several trays of them ) then i was forced to use current market lifters and the last two engines wiped cams ! has anybody used the CMD-HIGH PRESSURE LUBE #3 for a cam lube ? i was thinking about trying it because of what i had read about it . i got some now and it seems kind of thick , wich would be good because it wont drip of the cam before break in and it seems to proclaim more pressure resistance than anything on the market ?
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ShaunTiede/UltraDyne
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Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 12:57 pm Post subject: Cam Break in Flat tappets.

Assuming the lifter bore angles are true, I have been having great results doing the following for a flat tappet break in: I clean everything in Lacquer Thinner. Then I coat the base of the lifters and the lobes with the Moly lube that A.R.P. supplies with their rod bolts. I put a coat of 5W20 oil such as SuperFlow or Havoline on the lifter body and the lifter bores. Then I put that oil in the pan for start up. Pre lube the system, start it up, and Idle it at 2Grand. Works great. It stopped anyone calling me with this issue. You can't break in a flat tappet cam with synthetic oil. The oil is so slick that it keeps the lifter from rotating which tracks it. Some may have done it and dodged a bullet, but you try it on one of our high peak rate ramps with any sort of spring pressure and you'll be sorry.
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Lasher...
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Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 12:49 am Post subject:

Actually SL rated oils are not zinc free. A sample of oil can be sent to a lab and they can tell you some of the properties of your oil sample.

As an example here is an example of an SL rated 10W-30 I had done during 2003.These numbers are in Parts Per Million.

Molybdenum.......... = 46
Silicon................... = 2
Sodium................. = 1
Calcium................ = 1716
Magnesium............ = 11
Phosphorus ........... = 849
Zinc....................... = 947

SUS Viscosoity @ 210 F = 61
Flashpoint .................. = 430 deg F

SL rated oils have thier Phosphorus levels capped at 1000 PPM. The new GF-4 specs due out later this year will most likey be less than that. The EPA and other belive the Phosphorus is the leading killer of cat converters. Much of this Phosphorus comes from Zinc ( Zincdithiophosphate ).There is alot of debate that it's not really the PH 's fault but the vilotility of the oil instead......either way the new SM /GF-4 oils are very likely going to be a much different oil than the current crop of SL / GF-3 oils.
_______________________________________


cstraub
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Posts: 142
Location: Tri-Cities, TN Posted: Thu May 06, 2004 2:18 pm Post subject:

Red,

The Maressa is made in Mexico at the old FM plant down their. After the collapse in the lifter business, they reopened the plant. To my knowledge Isky use it, Melling, and FM. Bodies are cast in the USA and machined in Mexico.

I would guess the Ferrea piece is the new tool steel piece coming out of PPP. It's very nice, cup teams are using it. . .but it is very expensive.
_______________________________________


Brian B
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Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 52
Location: South Dakota Posted: Thu May 06, 2004 4:36 pm Post subject:


Chris

The Ferrea's are not the same as the PPP.
Just want to clarify.
PPP hold oil Ferrea's do not
Brian B
_______________________________________


RedRacer
Member

Joined: 02 May 2004
Posts: 62 Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 11:40 am Post subject:

Thanks for the info Chris. Do those Marussa lifters have any special markings to distinguish them from the "other" inferior lifters out there
RR
________________________________________

cstraub
Member

Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 142
Location: Tri-Cities, TN Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 8:22 am Post subject:


Red,

If they haven't changed. . .they have a groove around them positioned about .200" from the bottom of the lifter.

Chris

Chris Straub
Stef's Performance
B&B Performance
www.stefs.com
____________________________________

RedRacer
Member

Joined: 02 May 2004
Posts: 62 Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 2:21 pm Post subject:

Thanks Chris, that sounds like the lifter we have been using from GM, maybe that is where they are getting it made,
RR
_______________________________________

Guest

Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 9:58 am Post subject:

We've been using the Koolface lifters, but have been using Rotella T, as the over the road truck oils seem to do better, as the compunds removed from automotive oil are still in OTR truck oil.

Also, the break in is still important (1.2 rockers, inner spring removed, etc...)
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Old 06-19-2006, 10:01 PM
E.T. divided by $ spent= Speed
 
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Another thing I often wonder about cam problems is if guys are using enough oil during assembly.
I'm a slob!!!I spray the cam and lifters in brake clean to clean them,then I soak the lifters in oil,blob cam lube on lifters and lobes like its bondo,then I slobber the lifter bores in oil,pop the lifters in,then pour oil over the whole cam lifter area befor the intake goes on.
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