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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 01-07-2011, 01:09 PM
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Repeatability

Took more measurements. Resettled suspension between measurements.

Alignment shop print out:

camber=+0.8; +0.5 ( I asked for 0.5 neg;noticed later they dialed in positive )
caster=+2.9; +2.5
toe=0.14 degrees

My numbers:

-----------1-----------------
camber=+0.9; +0.6
caster=+2.9; +2.7
toe=+0.3 inches(to scribe)
-----------2---------------
camber=+0.8; +0.5
toe=+0.205 inches(to scribe)
-----------3--------------
camber=+0.8; +0.6
toe=+0.206 inches(to scribe)
-----------4---------------
toe=+0.205 inches (To tread)

Next time I will put scribe line near outboard of tire for easy access.
Seems tread is a good reference point on this car.

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Old 01-07-2011, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkydog
I agree about the shops. Seems like every time somebody posts about DIY alignment all they get is advice to "take it to a pro shop". Well - just because the shop has a sign that says alignment and just because they have the alignment gear doesn't mean the tech can think and work the equipment.

And like others say - god forbid that you have a non OEM vehicle or want special adjustments...

IMO you have to either DIY at home or DIY at the shop - and stand there and help them run their equip if you really want to make sure you get the right adjustments.

And 001stangy guy - way to go! Your numbers are very close and you will never get exact repeatability anyway. My only suggestion is to adapt your technique and try to rig the digital gage up to something that spreads across the wheel to the rim rather than the hub. That way you will increase your distance and gain accuracy on the angle readout.
With all due respect, it is just a Mustang. All the numbers are in the book or he wouldn't have got them in the first place. In all appearances it looks like it's OEM and if you ask the shop for special adjustments, the only guff you should get is "we can't warranty or guarantee it". All the figures he's trying to adjust to are factory settings. So, why the big deal about getting it done or doing it yourself? I don't understand. Fill me in.
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Old 01-07-2011, 04:40 PM
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Shop could not get 67 caster I wanted because they did not have UCA shims.

My 65 requires shims to adjust caster and camber but many shops don't even use shims anymore.

Adding shims requires loosening UCA bolts in engine compartment.
You want a tech w/ a big ol wrench in a freshly painted engine compartment???

Last $80 alignment I bought; the tech was baffled and called another mechanic.
Took them about 4 hours and they dialed in positive camber but I asked for negative camber.

BTW those are not OEM values since I'm running rack and pinion.
I cringed when they reinstalled rack support bolt w/ hi power air wrench.

Shop had hard time w/ custom settings. Final result was numbers which did not match ones I asked for. First they struggled to find car that old in their database. Then they did not know how to do custom specs.

Last edited by 001mustang; 01-07-2011 at 04:50 PM.
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Old 01-07-2011, 04:43 PM
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OK I get it now. Good luck.
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Old 01-10-2011, 01:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 001mustang
Took more measurements. Resettled suspension between measurements.

Alignment shop print out:

camber=+0.8; +0.5 ( I asked for 0.5 neg;noticed later they dialed in positive )
caster=+2.9; +2.5
toe=0.14 degrees

My numbers:

-----------1-----------------
camber=+0.9; +0.6
caster=+2.9; +2.7
toe=+0.3 inches(to scribe)
-----------2---------------
camber=+0.8; +0.5
toe=+0.205 inches(to scribe)
-----------3--------------
camber=+0.8; +0.6
toe=+0.206 inches(to scribe)
-----------4---------------
toe=+0.205 inches (To tread)

Next time I will put scribe line near outboard of tire for easy access.
Seems tread is a good reference point on this car.


I can't think of any reason how my toe numbers could be wrong.

Maybe the shop print out is wrong.

I have a theory.

I noticed if rack and pinion tie rod end moves (w/o lock nut) the tie rod does not follow thus changing setting. Problem exasperated since I anti seized the threads.

My theory is the shop print out is snap shot of alignment before tie rod lock nut was tightened. I think tie rod end(s) moved before lock nut seated. Only way to avoid this is to carefully hold tie rod end in current position until lock nut catches.

Will never know but at leased I learned to be very careful when tightening rod end lock nut after fine tuning toe.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 01-10-2011, 04:38 AM
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Alignment shop toe is in degrees, you are giving your toe reading in inches...am I missing something?

What is your tire diameter?

Last edited by 1ownerT; 01-10-2011 at 05:01 AM.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 01-10-2011, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ownerT
Alignment shop toe is in degrees, you are giving your toe reading in inches...am I missing something?

What is your tire diameter?
Tire diameter = 24"

Shop total toe = 0.14 degrees

Converted to inches:

SIN(0.14)*24"=0.059" total toe

Correct?
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 01-10-2011, 01:37 PM
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I come up with 0.029", as follows. Calculate the circumference of your tire as pi*D or 24" * 3.1415 = 75.396". Divide that by 360 to get how many inches per degree of toe. So, 75.396 / 360 = .20943 inches per degree.

Multiply .20943 inches * .14 degree to get .029 inches of toe at the edge of the tread.

That's how I figure the toe when I use the FastTrax unit and have to convert inches of toe to degrees.
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Old 01-10-2011, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cucumber1949
I come up with 0.029", as follows. Calculate the circumference of your tire as pi*D or 24" * 3.1415 = 75.396". Divide that by 360 to get how many inches per degree of toe. So, 75.396 / 360 = .20943 inches per degree.

Multiply .20943 inches * .14 degree to get .029 inches of toe at the edge of the tread.

That's how I figure the toe when I use the FastTrax unit and have to convert inches of toe to degrees.
I don't think this is correct. Circumference isn't involved in Toe geometry. What you guys are trying to do is convert back and forth between angle and distance and it is the sine of the angle that is involved. And the angle is from the center of wheel/tire rotation so you really need to convert the diameter of the tire to the radius.

I don't know if this zip attachment will unzip and work for you but here is a little Excel file that allows you to enter your wheel (or tire) diameter and whatever number of distances (in decimals) you want and it will convert to both fractions and degrees. Think of it as like a drill/tap size reference chart but for wheel alignments.
Attached Files
File Type: zip Alignment Conversion Tool.zip (4.8 KB, 88 views)
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 01-10-2011, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cucumber1949
I come up with 0.029", as follows. Calculate the circumference of your tire as pi*D or 24" * 3.1415 = 75.396". Divide that by 360 to get how many inches per degree of toe. So, 75.396 / 360 = .20943 inches per degree.

Multiply .20943 inches * .14 degree to get .029 inches of toe at the edge of the tread.

That's how I figure the toe when I use the FastTrax unit and have to convert inches of toe to degrees.
That will give toe measurement on one edge of tire.


SIN right triangle method:

SIN(A) = b/c

SIN(0.14) x 24 inches = 0.0586" toe front to rear tire edge



Circumference method:

Pi x D / 360degrees = inch travel / degree rotation

0.20943 x 0.14 degrees = 0.0293" toe one edge of tire.

0.0293" x 2 edges = 0.0586" toe front to rear tire edge.

Correct?
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 01-10-2011, 05:14 PM
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My thinking was following the same formula as cucumber1949, to be honest I don't know if it is correct or not.
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Old 01-10-2011, 05:31 PM
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Check this out. Toss the calculator and get real time measurments. With your home made turn table it should easy.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Deco-M...auge,2698.html
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:42 PM
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Convert toe degrees to inches

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ownerT
My thinking was following the same formula as cucumber1949, to be honest I don't know if it is correct or not.
Perhaps this will clear toe conversion up:

http://www.ground-control-store.com/toe-out.htm

My 0.14 degrees is total toe and I still come up with 0.0586" using above calculator.

Correct?
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 01-10-2011, 07:57 PM
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diy alignment

A buddy of mine always did his own alignment at hoime with string, levels trammel bar etc, 427 Cobra He didn't trust kids around the aluminum body. It has 4 wheel adjustment, all 4 wheels were pointing different directions when he set the track record at MIS a few years ago. IT must work , He won the OPtima street challenge 2009 first place in autocross and road race, and the go and stop. there are Utube videos (2009 optima Cobra) in car and side line videos. almost makes you dizzy watching on a big screen.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 01-10-2011, 10:16 PM
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Racing will quickly tell you "straight ahead" is never the fastest set up. Tire appreciate the added heat from a slight attack angle. It doesn't adversly affect tire wear as much as it sounds.

Toe out is usually a good thing for it makes the car more stable feeling at speed.
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