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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2011, 04:28 PM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by against all odds
As far as the 1000 foot non-sense:


First of all i don't like it, but for all practical purposes this is the only solution for now short of actually thinking(will explain in a sec). In order to have 1320' racing safely alot of the tracks would have to be totally revamped or even abandoned and re-located which means big time $$$ which just isn't practical in the short term and possibly even long term.


My proposal would be to keep all the mechanical rules the same, keep the track distance the same---1320 feet, BUT do not allow burnouts period or do not allow burnouts past the starting line. i like the no burnouts period the best.

Now that's an enteresting idea. First off, what sells more than tire smoke, wheelies but that's about it. To the general public (not the "real" race fan) smoke sells. So why not have a tire smoking all out race. I think you are on to something!

The only problem I see is they may be too squirrelly and too dangerous. But damn that sounds fun to watch. Unfortunetly the cars would have to totally change as they are designed to do just what they do. When we seeing guys shut it down the second the tires start spinning. I am thinking it would be too much for those motors.

Brian

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2011, 05:10 PM
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Actually the no burnout rule would have little value. I think it was year before last at the winter nats. Ashley Force had a problem starting and when they finally got her running there was no time for a burnout so she staged and ran.
Low et of the meet or very close to it.

Most tracks have some form of track prep so they are pretty sticky anyway.

The only way to limit TF and FC is to limit blowers to stock type 6-71, given drive ratio, limit cu in, limit fuel pump volumn, limit to one mag point style and limit mag output. The end result is a spec car like NASCAR. Do we want this?? There may be fewer tracks that can support the really fast cars. Do you want to pay for the increased ticket prices required by increased track costs??

Maybe it would be better to seal the motors, run what you brung but it must last thru qualifying and the race and don't oil the track down. You cannot take the motor apart after qualifying. This has been proposed before and didn't find much favor. Unfortunately this would lead to running with damaged parts and many crashes as a result. I ran both Top gas and FC with burned pistons when I didn't have a spare or time to fix it. Just short out the plug and run it. I didn't invent it, someone showed me. It's like rolling dice and hope you don't get snake eyes. haha
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2011, 05:15 PM
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The whole "drag cars cannot exceed X MPH" deal was based on false assumptions regarding coefficients of traction between the tires and track (prepped track surfaces throws that out the window- and if you've ever walked an NHRA prepped track, you know what I mean. NOT a place for flip flops! lol). Along w/that is air control/downforce (which doesn't have to come from wings- look at the ground effect road race cars through the years, some so efficient for their time that they were deemed to be illegal) which supplies much more traction than would be otherwise available, once the car is under way.

The problem in going 400 has nada to do w/HP per se, it's applying it. And under the current rules, they cannot apply all the power that they can make, instead they're always walking that razor's edge between not enough (tire shake) and too much (tire smoke). Occasionally the stars align and w/good air (which means HP is easier to make w/o the tune getting to radical), good track temps (cooler track means a tighter track, within limits), good track prep and a once/twice-in-a-year "perfect" tune up, the records get broken.

W/o rules, 400 is a done deal. 500? I don't know- there IS a limit, somewhere. Is it 500? I don't know, but I seriously doubt 500 will come, especially in 1000'. And we have Jim Head to thank for the 1000' tracks, mostly. Which is kinda odd the NHRA was swayed by the likes of him, who constantly struggles to make it out of the first round, and like that cry baby/weasel Tony Pendergan manages to blow sky-high within 20 feet of the starting line. Hell, the track could be 250' long, and he STILL wouldn't make it to the end under power 75% of the time. But Jim has the rep of being a "genius" of some sort (savant, more like it). But I digress...
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2011, 05:37 PM
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Easiest way to limit speed is to do what they usually do in every other form of racing.
Limit engine capacity and tire size.

As it is now, there are already plenty of rules to govern what you can and cannot run.
So it would not be a big deal to bring in a completely new smaller engined class, and phase out the big guys totally at some future cutoff date.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2011, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bentwings
Actually the no burnout rule would have little value. I think it was year before last at the winter nats. Ashley Force had a problem starting and when they finally got her running there was no time for a burnout so she staged and ran.
Low et of the meet or very close to it.

Most tracks have some form of track prep so they are pretty sticky anyway.

The only way to limit TF and FC is to limit blowers to stock type 6-71, given drive ratio, limit cu in, limit fuel pump volumn, limit to one mag point style and limit mag output. The end result is a spec car like NASCAR. Do we want this?? There may be fewer tracks that can support the really fast cars. Do you want to pay for the increased ticket prices required by increased track costs??

Maybe it would be better to seal the motors, run what you brung but it must last thru qualifying and the race and don't oil the track down. You cannot take the motor apart after qualifying. This has been proposed before and didn't find much favor. Unfortunately this would lead to running with damaged parts and many crashes as a result. I ran both Top gas and FC with burned pistons when I didn't have a spare or time to fix it. Just short out the plug and run it. I didn't invent it, someone showed me. It's like rolling dice and hope you don't get snake eyes. haha
I would like to see the 1 pump, 1 mag rule. Teardowns between rounds, but only 1 block for the event. You window it, your done.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2011, 07:00 PM
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i kind of figured no burnouts would not solve the problem completely---kind of makes you wonder why anyone/everyone still does them?

In that case limit tire size to 13"/or 14" wide AND no burnouts.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2011, 08:03 PM
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14 in tires made it deep into the 5's and 280 + in '85 so that alone won't do it. Small motors...well look at nostalgia FC. Some run a 392 426 style and some like the guys at our shop run a 500 in motor all run about the same. So ci. alone won't do it either. Maybe a 300 ci in would slow them down some for a while but it will take mag,blower, fuel pump and tires to really do it.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2011, 08:19 PM
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Take the wings/downforce generating elements away. Slower speeds, lots of tire smoke, fans in the bleachers.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2011, 01:00 AM
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For the evolution of drag racing and the dragster you canīt go wrong by reading High Performance: The Culture and Technology of Drag Racing, 1950-2000 by Robert C. Post.

"This book will be the Bible of drag racing for future generations." -- Don Garlits
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2011, 02:13 PM
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A friend of mine used to crew on a funny car in the 70s. He always said 'he who crosses the line with the most candles lit...wins. And theres some truth to it. Dropping a cylinder mid run can cause all kinds of weird pressure/ balance issues which lead to cars plowing into things. If they find a way to keep all the sparkplugs lit; it would be a lot safer, however they'd play with the clutches, aero package and etc until they were on the razors edge again. Its who they are. Lets be brutally honest for a moment; if there wasn't the occasional and unfortunate death, most 'fans' wouldn't go. They like the assault on the senses that 4 seconds of nitro provides. And one poster mentioned last pushrod motorsport; Supermodifieds are faster on short ovals than the NASCARS are. In fact I went to the toyota dealership to special order one of those rear wheel drive, V8 truck arm suspensioned, carbureted 'camrys' and couldnt find one.

I miss the late 80s when TFFC still looked like cars. It'll never be the same
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2011, 08:17 PM
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When I was much younger- before "bracket/index racing" , the deal was rails. They ruled, always. Next to them were the altereds, then a close third were the FX cars . SS was OK, and the Stock classes less so, but the whole "run it out the back door" deal was what it was about- not slamming on the brakes 50' from the finish line, or rails coming off the line at 2500 RPM and loafing to half track before the throttle stops opened up enough to actually accelerate.

If it wasn't for the "Outlaw" classes, Pro Nitrous, Pro Mod, and AA/TF and F/FC, drag racing would be dead, IMHO.

Some cool 60's F/C's.

AutoGear, I bet you'd like the IHRA "Prostalgia Nitro Funny Car" class (example below).

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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 11-02-2011, 07:14 AM
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agree with cobalt 150% .
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 11-02-2011, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
When I was much younger- before "bracket/index racing" , the deal was rails. They ruled, always. Next to them were the altereds, then a close third were the FX cars . SS was OK, and the Stock classes less so, but the whole "run it out the back door" deal was what it was about- not slamming on the brakes 50' from the finish line, or rails coming off the line at 2500 RPM and loafing to half track before the throttle stops opened up enough to actually accelerate.

If it wasn't for the "Outlaw" classes, Pro Nitrous, Pro Mod, and AA/TF and F/FC, drag racing would be dead, IMHO.

Some cool 60's F/C's.

AutoGear, I bet you'd like the IHRA "Prostalgia Nitro Funny Car" class (example below). (Added after looking at Cobalts link) I would love to see IHRA racing on the West Coast. There are too many weekends with not a lot to do. Dan

Just like being at Famoso a week ago! Seriously, if you guys have never been to a March Meet or Hot Rod Reunion, Go! 3 days (4 days at the MM this year) of romping stomping nothing newer than 1972 era cars. I will buy lunch.
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Last edited by dinger; 11-02-2011 at 09:42 AM. Reason: added stuff
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 11-02-2011, 11:19 PM
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Hello,

Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
I wonder how much forward "thrust" T/F zoomies make at full chat?
When a fuel funny car drops a cylinder the inbalance in the exhaust thrust is sufficient to cause the car to leave the groove.

McGurk
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 11-02-2011, 11:57 PM
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There are lots of numbers thrown wildly about the actual force of the exhaust. Its quite a bit I know that. I've had headers in the shop that the bottom is bulged out. They do glow bright cherry red so they are relatively soft when heated.

Suppose there was 1000# on each side and you dropped one cylinder. 250# less down force on one side would surely make a difference. this is on a top fuel car.

I don't think there is nearly that much on the Nostalgia Funnycar but there is some. The cars at the shop have both made arrow straight runs on seven cyl and only lost a tenth and a couple mph from the previous run. On the other hand they both have taken the cones out and one tapped the wall on all eight cyl. On these cars there is only a small rear spoiler so the total down force is pretty small compared to the big show cars. The current issue is the spoiler as they all would like more but in keeping with the theme of the cars I hope is is not allowed.

To go back to the original question about forward thrust. It's hard to put an exact number with out the force from the tubes. The engineering board I hang out on a while back a couple guys who are into thermal dynamics tried to calculate this but it is very complex.

A bit of humor along this line a few years ago at "back to the 50's" there were some kids trying to get us to do illegal burnouts with our hotrods. I was on the way out with my Dodge diesel truck. Now it can really "roll the coal" when desired so I bet $5 bucks to one of these kids that he couldn't stop the exhaust with his shoe. He bit so I punched in program 5 on the programmer. He put his foot against the pipe and I tromped on it. hahahahh He was covered in black soot. What a hoot.
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