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-   -   Dupont Paint (http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/dupont-paint-73903.html)

joeford 11-12-2005 03:39 PM

Dupont Paint
 
OK....I know little about paint....but again it's not my business. However, would anyone agree that I as many other fellow rodders paying hundreds of dollars for quality paint have a right to expect an expert knowledge base at the local paint store that represents the Paint store?....I mean to some degree is that not a part of the price we're paying for high end performance paints?
Having done my home work on the best approach to painting my new TCI chassis, I decided on Dupont, self-etch Vari-primer, 2K urethane primer-sealer, and chroma base one topcoat.
I get to the paint store and am effectively talked out of my plan because as advised by the "STORE EXPERT".....self etch is old school and today's products are better. It was recommended that I go with a DTM Epoxy Primer-Sealer pre-ceeded with Prep-sol, sanding, and Final Klean. This sounded good as from my research the DTM's are good products. It was also recommended that I use a FUL-THANE 400X Urethane as a topcoat. In as much as this is a factory packaged product available in many colors without signifcant cost upgrade, I jumped on a great Gunmetal color.
I get home only to discover that the tech sheet for the topcoat does not mention the DTM Epoxy as a recommended primer.
OK....Can someone straighten me out....Wil the topcoat work with the DTM Epoxy in spite of the tech sheet or have I been mis-guided by the Dupont rep?
Tip: When buying paint, place a sticky note on your forehead that reads, please mix paint, so that I won't blow the day sanding and preping only to find my paint has not been mixed....

Centerline 11-12-2005 04:06 PM

The store expert was correct in that self etching primers are old school and today's epoxy primers are much better.

The Ful-Thane 400X is a Nason product which is DuPont's economy line. I strongly suspect that this combination will be fine and they will work well together but if the fact that the "P" sheet for the Ful-Thane doesn't mention compatibility with the DuPont expxy primer bothers you just return the topcoat and go with one of the Chroma single stage urethane topcoats instead.

There are a couple of paint gurus on this board that can probably confirm or correct my suggestions so I would wait for one of them to chime in. Although I'm a Moderator for the body/exterior forum I still don't have all the answers. The fact that both products are in the DuPont family makes me suspect there will be no problems. If one was not a DuPont product I would strongly council against using it. MartinSr or BarryK or BadBob will be able to confirm this though.

BarryK 11-12-2005 04:15 PM

The store gave you great advice!

Yes you can use the Dupont with the Nason with no problems at all, and don't ever expect to see it written in a tech sheet that the two will co-mingle.
Won't happen!

Follow the stores advice and get the job done and post pictures.

kenseth17 11-12-2005 04:29 PM

not using this exact combination, I can't say for sure it will work. But I suspect it will. I agree your paint store expert that etch primer is outdated compared to todays products. The reason the primer isn't listed could be that its in a different product line, the nason being a lower line. Nason has an epoxy primer also you could use that would most likely be lower priced. I am not real familiar with dupong. But for a comparison ppg's low line is omni. I doubt they say in the tech sheets the omni epoxy is okay to use as an undercoat for the delton line, but I've used it under deltron base, limco base and others without problems. Also used other line of urethane primer( marhyde) under a few different lines of paint without problems. Many on here use spi products under different lines of paint. You are right to be concerned not seeing it listed on the tech sheet, but many undercoats seem compatable with different lines of paint. They do develop products in a line to work together, but thats not to say using something else won't work fine, but there is always a chance it won't and your on your own on any procedures.

302 Z28 11-12-2005 07:19 PM

Nason is DuPont, so there will be zero problems. One of our club painters uses Nason primers and top coats and mixes and matches with DuPont all the time and has excellent results.

Vince

Lost in NJ 11-12-2005 09:29 PM

Etching prime is not old school
 
The problem is in its misuse and true purpose.

Etching primer was designed for painting smooth metal that has not been mechanically etched with sandblasting or sanding.

The primer has some acid that will bite with the metal.

Lots of guys use it cause it is cheaper and all their buddies tell em to use it. Many people fail to do the most important step. Read all of the tech sheets and understand what each product is good for.

Epoxy is great but it must be applied to etched (chemically or mechanically) metal.

Keep in mind epoxy is not the only product that can be put direct to metal. A lot of the filling urethane primers can go DTM to. Just remember it is not good to put bondo type products over etching primer.

Go to your dealer and get a bunch of product sheets, read them, and go back and ask questions. Also ask questions at the paint manufacturers websites too. They have been very responsive to my questions and I tell them I am a hobbiest.

joeford 11-13-2005 09:42 PM

Post Priming
 
OK...guys thanks for weighing in so fast....I'll take your advice and stick with the Nason product over the 2540s primer as recommended by the store. Actually now have the first coat of primer on the chassis....I'm afraid however that I rushed in to the project too quickly....It was raining out and I had no place to test the new gun.....The first few minutes was nothing but spitting and sputtering....A few minutes into the job however and I was shooting paint like a pro....well maybe a pro's helper...I'm afraid however that the few minutes of spitting and sputtering took their toll and I now have areas where the paint thickness varies due to the inconsistent application of paint. I note from the spec sheet that this is a non-sanding primer. So, question is...how can I straighten out the bad spots and improve overall leveling of the primer before moving on to the topcoat?

The novice....

Bee4Me 11-14-2005 11:23 AM

Quote:

I note from the spec sheet that this is a non-sanding primer. So, question is...how can I straighten out the bad spots and improve overall leveling of the primer before moving on to the topcoat?
Just means that you CAN top coat right over it without sanding IF in the recoat window of that primer.
Sand out you bad spots and scuff the rest with a red scotch pad,clean off with wax & grease remover,Reshoot another primer coat and paint it.
If the bad spots sand out ok with out cutting thru,block out the rest and clean,paint.
Question will be IF the primer LOOK'S smooth enough for a color coat. That will determine WHAT to do next.

joeford 11-15-2005 06:57 PM

Bee4 and After
 
You guys are the best...Thanks for the quick and direct response....I'll let you know how it turns out.....

jcclark 11-16-2005 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeford
have a right to expect an expert knowledge base at the local paint store that represents the Paint store?....I mean to some degree is that not a part of the price we're paying for high end performance paints?
...

Actually, NO!
Please notice the fine print on your paint cans, "NOT FOR RETAIL SALE"
Car paint is NOT suppose to be sold to the general public and is intended
for "professional use" only. It's a wholesale product.
So actually you can't really "expect" help from the store, they all do it
but some have actually got in trouble for selling to the public.
I had one jobber move to the adjacent county just so he could
continue selling to hobbyist like me. He was facing fines here.
You better off coming here for your advice,
some store people can and will give you bad advice.
You'll get the best help here and other forums.

adtkart 11-17-2005 04:14 AM

Many of the larger jobbers will actually send their people to school to learn about the products. Then again, amy of the counter people are just hobbiests or former parts people. If a jobber's main business is large shops, they call the manufacturer's reps for problems or questions.

Aaron

Scode68 11-17-2005 05:28 AM

I had a similar experience but wanted to use the DTM Epoxy primer. The “Expert” there told me that the school was still out on using it and told me to use the Self-Etch Vari-Prime. They also talked me out of using the Chroma-One and into the Nason Ful-Thane. The Ful-Thane comes factory mixed but it is also available in any car manufactures factory color as long as they could find the formula. I’m going with Black Garnet Red Pearl that is on the 2004-2005 Lexus ES-330s.

BarryK 11-17-2005 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scode68
I had a similar experience but wanted to use the DTM Epoxy primer. The “Expert” there told me that the school was still out on using it and told me to use the Self-Etch Vari-Prime. They also talked me out of using the Chroma-One and into the Nason Ful-Thane. The Ful-Thane comes factory mixed but it is also available in any car manufactures factory color as long as they could find the formula. I’m going with Black Garnet Red Pearl that is on the 2004-2005 Lexus ES-330s.

*************************************************
That expert should be shot!
He does need a lot of training for sure, if we let him live.

Nason on a Lexus? Red at that?
Sorry, I thought I had herd it all and had to vent.

jcclark 11-17-2005 10:29 AM

Barry, do you think he's painting a Lexus?
Sounds like he picked a color used on a Lexus?????.
Anyway, that's why it's better to come here for info
instead of the paint store.
As you know, there are all different smart levels at the stores. :)

Scode68 11-17-2005 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarryK
*************************************************
Nason on a Lexus? Red at that?
Sorry, I thought I had herd it all and had to vent.


It’s actually like a very dark metallic maroon that looks black when the sun isn't hitting it. They where able to mix it with the Nason so I went with that for my 68 Mustang coupe.


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