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Old 08-22-2006, 10:10 PM
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dyno - never again

Today I lost all respect for motorsport companies. After several months of trying to tune out my carburetor to peak operation I finally decided to take it in and pay a “professional” to do it on a dynamometer. $250 later I learned the hard way that $15 entry at a test and tune day at the dragstrip by myself would have been better and smarter. I have had two separate experiences with performance companies. One a couple of years ago before a motor rebuild , head swap and cam upgrade. The guys running the dyno managed to have it running worse when I got it back than when I took it in. The “technicians” looked like they were straight out of high school and pronounced stoich as sto-eee-ch. Morons. Now today a couple of years later I’m out of state and going to school and took it to a rather respectable racing company, not to bash anyone lets call em xyz motorsports. These guys normally work on porshes and subaru’s pretty much eurpoean cars that are fuel injected. But they ensured that they could handle carburetors. When I pay $110 an hour for an “expert” and a dyno I expect that they should know something about my car that I don’t without even looking at it, stuff you go to tech school for. After paying them for me to run the piss out my car and work on the carburetor myself they seemed pretty happy with themselves that I gained 40 hp. Which I admit is a good but is nothing that could not be done outside the dyno. I knew the timing and carburetion was not correct before I took it in, it ran like ****. Which is why I took it in! ..to save myself time and stress on the motor from so much trial and error. In the end they knew less than I did about carburetors and I shelled out $250 to work on my own car. It is still not at its best but I wasn’t wasting anymore time or money. Where have all the carb guys gone? Finding people that are good at tuning and know carburetors from top to bottom are hard to come by. I searched all over before I finally went to these guys. So learn from my mistake, for tuning go to the dragstrip. Or a back road which I can’t do anymore because I live in a city where many pedestrians and cops live too. If you want numbers then go to the dyno. It’s a hell of a lot cheaper and if you don’t like punishing your motor you can let off at the end of the track. Pushing the revs past 5,000 and up for 15 so seconds on consecutive dyno runs is enough to make anyone that loves their car’s heart wince. If anyone knows any good carb guys let me know. I won’t be going into one of these shops again. Most of my home trial and error runs have been give and take on performance with great top end or great low end not both. Thats why I think it definately has more.. I have felt it before! Oh by the way.. 79 trans am, 355 chevy, weind stealth intake, edelbrock 650 thunder series carb, 373 gears, hooker headers, msd ignition, performer rpm camshaft, port and polished heads, th350 trans, 2400 stall,….. 241 rwhp??!

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Old 08-22-2006, 10:59 PM
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Pushing the revs past 5,000 and up for 15 so seconds on consecutive dyno runs is enough to make anyone that loves their car’s heart wince.

Why would you use a cam that puts the power range above 5000 rpm?
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Old 08-23-2006, 09:06 AM
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Dynos are easier on you stuff than most road trips. Believe me.


Finding specialty carbs shops are easy. PM for a list of good ones that will get a better carb for you even without a so much as a run at the strip or dyno.

Any machine is only as good as the operator.
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Old 08-23-2006, 09:49 AM
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there is more to learn from a dyno then just hp.if under standing right you were on a chassis dyno,if i was you i would take the time and money and put it on an engine dyno before it ever went in my car.dyno's tell you alot more than people think and you can find problems before they become a major issue.
just my thought.
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Old 08-23-2006, 12:13 PM
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welcome to reality.

We have created a society of parts replacers. ASE techs are taught to read gauges and swap parts. Very little dianostic understanding is necessary. Ethics and honesty are long gone from most shops. Ancient techniques such as carburetors are dying with the old timers who have gone into seclusion. Think not? How many rodders on this site put a carb "right-out-of-box" on an engine, it doesn't run right, so it is the carb manufacturer's fault?

Finding ethical and knowledgeable technicians is a trick in itself. Look for an old guy under a backyard garage roof.

example. I have a friend with a 98 Chevy conversion van and two completely separate A/C systems, two compressors. Both AC quit at the same time.

The new car dealership that sold it and two other shops say that it will cost $ 2000+ to repair the AC systems, maybe more if they find more bad parts.

Question is....... Why did both AC systems quit at the same time as the DVD, radio, and TV?????

The techs cannot be THAT stupid, can they?
Can you spell RIP OFF?
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Old 08-23-2006, 12:17 PM
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I want to mention that I have actually driven 600 miles one way to have a specific shop work on my car because I knew that they would do it right.
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Old 08-23-2006, 12:20 PM
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Duh-fuse maybe, most likely electrical-not all techs are parts monkeys.
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Old 08-23-2006, 01:19 PM
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What kind of changes did you make to the carb at the dyno?

What kind of heads, valve size, and springs?

How much total ignition timing.

How much initial ignition timing.

What is the engine compression ratio?

241 rwhp at what rpm?

Tuning for peak power is much easier than tuning for good drive-ability and mpg.

That "RPM" cam may need a little more stall.
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Old 08-23-2006, 02:43 PM
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Not quite sure what the beef is. You obviously went to a dyno shop that monitors the dyno runs but expects you to do the tuning! You didn't break any speeding laws, you're not going to ruin your engine with 5,000 rpm "blasts", and you were able to get hands on experience and gain 40 horses! You could have went to the shop, dropped your car off, told them your expectations, and demanded dyno sheets as proof of what they did. That would have cost more money, I'll bet!
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Old 08-23-2006, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xntrik
welcome to reality.

We have created a society of parts replacers. ASE techs are taught to read gauges and swap parts. Very little dianostic understanding is necessary. Ethics and honesty are long gone from most shops. Ancient techniques such as carburetors are dying with the old timers who have gone into seclusion. Think not? How many rodders on this site put a carb "right-out-of-box" on an engine, it doesn't run right, so it is the carb manufacturer's fault?

Finding ethical and knowledgeable technicians is a trick in itself. Look for an old guy under a backyard garage roof.

example. I have a friend with a 98 Chevy conversion van and two completely separate A/C systems, two compressors. Both AC quit at the same time.

The new car dealership that sold it and two other shops say that it will cost $ 2000+ to repair the AC systems, maybe more if they find more bad parts.

Question is....... Why did both AC systems quit at the same time as the DVD, radio, and TV?????

The techs cannot be THAT stupid, can they?
Can you spell RIP OFF?
I take offense at that!!!! You obviously have not performed any driveability on late model cars, if you have you would not make such a blanket statement.

I would love to have the simplicity of yesteryear cars today.

Are you an ASE certified tech? If not why are you pointing fingers. I just happen to be one and I take much pride in my work and I would just love to see one of those "old guy under a backyard garage roof" diagnose a new car with a no code driveability problem.

As soon as someone known nothing or not much about something that someone else does, they call that person a RIP OFF.... Why????

I would love to say more about what you have said, But Jon would not like what I would say to you. YOU and people like you are the reason that auto repair and auto techs have such a bad name. You spread ignorance and hate for others.


Steve
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Old 08-23-2006, 04:01 PM
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After reading post #5 I knew it wouldn't take long for the dung to hit the fan.
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Old 08-23-2006, 05:02 PM
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When you throw as much dung as xntrik did in post #5 , some is going to stick to some one, and that some one was me. I try very hard not to say offensive things on this board, but when xntrik stated what he did I could not keep quiet. Anybody that is so blatant as he was in calling an ASE certified technician a parts changer with very little diagnostic understanding, well that just shows his lack of understanding on what it takes to repair these cars.

Steve

Last edited by 1931 steve; 08-23-2006 at 05:32 PM.
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Old 08-23-2006, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldbird
The “technicians” looked like they were straight out of high school and pronounced stoich as sto-eee-ch. Morons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldbird
Where have all the carb guys gone? Finding people that are good at tuning and know carburetors from top to bottom are hard to come by. I searched all over before I finally went to these guys.
The situation you ran into is very common around here. One of my customers has a Cobra replica with a carbed 394 stroker in it. He took it to 3 different shops with chassis dynos that assured him they could tune his carb. Every time he got it back it was worse than when he took it in. He stopped in and asked if I knew how to tune carbs. I showed him the Biscayne(see my photo album) and took him a ride. He asked how I tuned if I didn't have a chassis dyno. When i said "by driving the car", he was suprised. He left the car and left my shop a happy customer when he picked it up. Part of the problem is, due to most car magazines and TV shows, people think that you have to have a chassis dyno to tune. The other part of the problem is a lot of the younger people have no knowledge of a carb and most times, no desire to learn.
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Old 08-23-2006, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1931 steve
I take offense at that!!!! You obviously have not performed any driveability on late model cars, if you have you would not make such a blanket statement.

I would love to have the simplicity of yesteryear cars today.

Are you an ASE certified tech? If not why are you pointing fingers. I just happen to be one and I take much pride in my work and I would just love to see one of those "old guy under a backyard garage roof" diagnose a new car with a no code driveability problem.

As soon as someone known nothing or not much about something that someone else does, they call that person a RIP OFF.... Why????

I would love to say more about what you have said, But Jon would not like what I would say to you. YOU and people like you are the reason that auto repair and auto techs have such a bad name. You spread ignorance and hate for others.


Steve

As a auto technician I totally agree. I worked at the dealership for years and currently at an independent shop. I challenge ANYONE that just does hot rods and race cars as a hobby to take a shot at making a good living working on modern cars. Theres no comparison. You would most likely screw up 3 or 4 cars and get canned. Im not trying to step on toes here Im just stating a fact. I will admit there are some new guys and dummies out there working in shops and dealerships. Ive worked with a few. As far as ASE goes my own personal thoughts are is that being ASE certified means your able to study a book and pass a test and thats it. I think its a money racket. IMHO. Ed Cannon........ ASE Master tech.
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Old 08-23-2006, 06:53 PM
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A service person in todays shop must be able to deal with problems in hundreds of different cars and trucks. We, as auto hobbyists have only a few or one car to deal with. You can learn everything about that car and be more knowledgeable than anyone. With the Internet any problem you’ve had has happened to others. There’s just no reason to learn carbs as a business unless you try and make it a specialty service shop. The guy with an old stocker is not going to pay for 4 or so hours at $50 t0 $100 an hour to rebuild his carb when the car is worth $500. The real problem happens when a Technician with a big ego will not admit that he has little knowledge in a particular area.
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