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Old 11-12-2008, 09:21 PM
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Dz 302

hey everyone. I am the new owner of a 1969 Camaro. its a 307 with a 4spd. numbers matching virgin car. never had body hammer hit it. I plan on making it a Z/28. Now this is what i need, a 327 with a 283 crank or a 283 with a 327 crank. I have most of everything else. Date coded 2.02 camel hump heads, 11:10 pistons, and so on. can anyone guide in the right direction to build my dream motor........
Thanks,
Paul

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Old 11-12-2008, 09:32 PM
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If I were you I'd get a standard 350 block and a 3" stroke crank. there's no sense in trying to be number's matching on the block since its not really a Z28. I understand wanting a high compression 302 for nostalgia's sake, but you'd e way better off making it with a 350 block and an aftermarket crank. I'd also suggest going with a roller block so you can run a roller cam. you can get the same high winding power but it will also be more streetable with more torque down low- the best of both world's. Of course a solid roller is the best, but its also the most expensive and not really needed for such a smallcube enigne in a street car.

I'd also look into getting some aftermarket aluminum heads. after you paint them orange they'll look the same as any iron castings to most people but a good set can give you an easy 50hp, in your case possibley more. I wouldn't go too far over a 180cc runner though.

you can try to use "original" parts for nostalgia's sake, but you'll just be using more gas, making less power, and actaully lessening the value of the car. I don't believe you can get the exact original exhaust setup, so even if you do build the engine as close to a DZ as you can get it still won't sound original. And good luck finding an original carb and intake.
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Old 11-12-2008, 11:11 PM
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Carb and intake

It would look real trick if you could find an Edelbrock "Smokey Ram" intake (google images for a pic) them run an R 3310 Holley 780 CFM (not hard to find) that intake was named after the Legendary Smokey Yunick,you might want to Google: Mark Donahue, and learn about the real history of the Z-28's. Also in 1969 the 302 used a large journal crank the small journal was used in 1967 to mid 1968 the large journal rods improved reliability a bunch! I have built 302's back in the day,DO NOT skimp on the rods! A well built 302 will find 8,000 RPM + in the blink of an eye.Try Mortec.com for the casting number for the 302 large journal crank.Click on the thread below "building a 302 Chevy" he listed all the correct part numbers.

Last edited by JeffB; 11-12-2008 at 11:26 PM. Reason: add text
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Old 11-13-2008, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul302
hey everyone. I am the new owner of a 1969 Camaro. its a 307 with a 4spd. numbers matching virgin car. never had body hammer hit it. I plan on making it a Z/28. Now this is what i need, a 327 with a 283 crank or a 283 with a 327 crank. I have most of everything else. Date coded 2.02 camel hump heads, 11:10 pistons, and so on. can anyone guide in the right direction to build my dream motor........
Thanks,
Paul
Well hey, if it's your dream motor, then build your dream. You don't need a 283 block with 327 crank, that's called a 307 and you already have one of those. You need either a large journal 327 block or any 350 block and a 302 3.00" stroke crank. I think the 68's used a 327 small journal block and a 283 crank and the 69's used a 350 block and dedicated 302 crank. I could be wrong though. It's your choice on cams, either a solid flat tappet or a solid roller tappet. From a cost standpoint, I'd start with a '88-up Gen I 5700 350 roller block and use aftermarket solid rollers in it. You get the added benefit of a 1-piece rear seal.
I'd use a Scat forged crank and capscrew rods and 4-bolt the main caps.

Just as long as you know the camel hump heads are junk compared to what is available 40 years later. I mean, a stock Z28 went 0-60 in 7.4 seconds and ran the quarter in 15.12 seconds at 94.8 mph. This is hardly what we on this board would consider blistering performance.

Last edited by techinspector1; 11-13-2008 at 12:16 AM.
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Old 11-13-2008, 05:05 AM
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Not to be discouraging, but if you plan on street driving this car then your not going to be happy. You`ll have to gear it real low to make up for the loss in low end torque. 302`s were high winding engines meant for race track duty, they weren`t that great on the street. You won`t be able to run pump gas on 11:1 compression either. I would find a 1996 Vortec 350 and build it, in most cases the factory roller lifters can be reused so that saves you some bucks. If you built a Vortec 350 with a nice roller cam and Vortec heads and a few other mods, it`ll eat the 302 alive and still have good street manners.
However, don`t completely rule the 307 out either, it can be made into a strong runner with modest parts. You could find a 350 block and use the 307 crank and have a large journal 327. There`s lots of options out there. If you want a factory duplicate of a 302, build it, but as said you won`t be happy with the results. If you used a 350 or any other cubic inch engine for that matter since all small blocks are identical nobody would know what size it is and you could just as easily tell them it`s a 302.
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Old 11-13-2008, 05:26 AM
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Paul302 - I read your other post regarding 302's. I figured I better post on this one since it is a little fresher.

From reading your posts, I think you are confused about what makes displacement.

Simply put 3.875 bore means either a 283 (3" stroke) or a 307 (3.25" stroke).

4" bore means 302 (3" stroke), 327 (3.25" stroke), or 350 (3.48" stroke).

To be a 69 302, I believe the casting number on the block needs to be 3932386. However, that casting number could be a 4 bolt 302, a 2 bolt 327, or a 2 or 4 bolt 350. To be a 302, it has to also have the DZ code, IIRC.

In the long run, the value of a true Z28 originally was that it fit in 5 liter class racing. Today, it is its rarity. Unless you try to cheat someone by passing off a fake as real, you would really be better off, as others have suggested, with a 350. You might also want to consider a 383.
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Old 11-13-2008, 06:15 AM
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As a former owner of a couple of real Z-28s ... with the original 302 engines ... I can tell you that the DZ super performance hype is just a myth.



Yes they did run decent for the time ... but on any given day ... most Big Block Chevelles, Camaros and Novas would blow their doors off ... on the street. With the 11 to 1 compression and the factory solid lift camshaft ... the Z28 302 needed almost constant attention to run good. A 66 Nova with a 327/350 horsepower engine would run off and hide from a real 67 to 69 Z28.

Why did Chevrolet start putting the 350 in the 1970 Z28's ...

For all the reasons listed above


With the gas available today ... you would be a LOT QUICKER and have a better driving Camaro ... with a 350 or a larger small block. I suggest buying a ZZ4 short block and installing your old correct type parts on it. The newer style blocks ( 1986/1987 Chevrolet went to a one piece real main seal ) are vastly better than the early style. With the ZZ4 you would get 4 bolt mains, a good set of rods and pistons and a hydraulic roller camshaft. Buy a upgraded NASTY sounding hydraulic roller for the ZZ4 and call it done.

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Old 11-13-2008, 06:30 AM
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There is some valid desire to build a 302. Mostly because of its eagerness to wind up. The valve train will be the limiting factor- just as it is on a 350 and unless you go with a really lazy cam you should expect to spring for some top quality stuff to live at 8,000 RPM. If it is a really lazy cam don't expect to be able to drive it on the street. An agressive hyd. roller cam would probably be the best thing if you just want to take it to 7,000 RPM or so. That along with some small chambered heads and some flat tops. If you do plan to run on pump gas at 11:1 then you need to put a lot more technology in it than the original 302's had.

You'll need some top notch 50cc chamber heads with about a 180cc intake runner. I would recomend going with a dual plane intake since it will be street driven, I looked at a Tork-Link recently and that would look trick and perform well up top, but you would probably have a little trouble down low (and I know its technically a single plane but you can fill in the divider to increase the vacuum signal). You'll need an aftermarket 3" crank and as stated some top quality rods. I would also go for forged pistons at this point, and they'll probably have to be custom ordered anyway. A 700 cfm carb will be more than enough, I would recomend trying a quadrajet to help with low rpm atomization. A billet HEI ignition should be adequate. Oh, and a roller cam with about 240 dur @.050". I would go a little smaller on the cam if it were my engine, something like the Lunati 60122, but If it were my engine I wouldn't be building a high winding screamer for street duty.

I do build high winding screamers some times, but not out of a 302 chevy, and not to live on the street.
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Old 11-13-2008, 03:04 PM
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Being the 302 was the only large journal crank in 69, all 302 from 68 down were small journal. You will be paying a hefty price for a rare crank. There are no such thing as a large journal 283 crank either.
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Old 11-13-2008, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul302
hey everyone. I am the new owner of a 1969 Camaro. its a 307 with a 4spd. numbers matching virgin car. never had body hammer hit it. I plan on making it a Z/28. Now this is what i need, a 327 with a 283 crank or a 283 with a 327 crank. I have most of everything else. Date coded 2.02 camel hump heads, 11:10 pistons, and so on. can anyone guide in the right direction to build my dream motor........
Thanks,
Paul
The car is actually worth more the way you found it. That said I wouldn't do anything to it that can't be undone and I'd keep the original engine someplace warm and clean.

Like many other's have said the 302 in it's day was a real PIA to keep up. As is typical with solid liftered, multi-carbed, high compression engines you'll find an inordinate amount of time being spent keeping them tuned.

Building an engine today with date coded camel hump heads is a waste of time. If you try to pass it off as an original Z-28 anybody with a bit of knowledge will see thru it pretty quickly. If you're just thrilled with big valve old fashion heads as a performance medium, anything you come up against with a set of Vortecs will have you for lunch. Plus trying to run 11 and a fraction to one compression of 92 octane unleaded won't be a happy experience. Time marched on and a 69 Camaro, no matter how endearing, is technologically obsolete.

The ability to run a highly stressed solid lifter cam on the street is going away, modern oils are formulated for roller cams, while you can use additives in the oil, the first time you forget will be the end of the cam and lifters. The modern age really dictates a roller cam for a street engine.

You'd be much better advised to build a 350 or larger with a Gen I B roller block. These are common in most pick-ups from the mid 1980s thru the L-31 Vortec of the mid 90s. An LS would be super if you can pay the tab for one of these. Late model heads such as the Vortec or after market like the SR Torquer in cast iron or the Fastburn in aluminum get you a modern combustion chamber, modern port relationships and the ability of the seats and valves to put up with un-leaded fuel. These blocks can take a roller cam using the factory method for maintaining lifter alignment which is a quantum less expensive than their aftermarket equivalents. Plus the block is set up to use a thrust plate to react cam longitudinal movement which is a whole lot simpler to set up and maintain than the cam button method. These newer one piece rear seal engines are oil tight something that can't be said for the old 302. Piston design has come aways as well, the circular dish piston needed for compression ratio maintenance with a small chamber head has given way to the flat top or D dish design, use of which depends on how hard you can push the compression. A cast iron Vortec style head can accept about 9.2 to 9.5 on unleaded premium, aluminum versions will go to 10-10.5 to 1 without problems.

Bogie
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Old 11-13-2008, 04:30 PM
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i cannot thank you enough for all of that information. I have to adjust my way of thinking now. I also have a 383 stroker in my garage from my son. I think what i might do is, tear that down and mic it to see what i have. As far as building my dream motor, i really have to rethink that.
Thanks alot for all of that information.
Paul
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Old 11-13-2008, 05:27 PM
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A 383 OR A 406 WILL BE CHEAPER and easier
have fun
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Old 11-13-2008, 09:07 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldbogie
The car is actually worth more the way you found it. That said I wouldn't do anything to it that can't be undone and I'd keep the original engine someplace warm and clean.

Like many other's have said the 302 in it's day was a real PIA to keep up. As is typical with solid liftered, multi-carbed, high compression engines you'll find an inordinate amount of time being spent keeping them tuned.

Building an engine today with date coded camel hump heads is a waste of time. If you try to pass it off as an original Z-28 anybody with a bit of knowledge will see thru it pretty quickly. If you're just thrilled with big valve old fashion heads as a performance medium, anything you come up against with a set of Vortecs will have you for lunch. Plus trying to run 11 and a fraction to one compression of 92 octane unleaded won't be a happy experience. Time marched on and a 69 Camaro, no matter how endearing, is technologically obsolete.

The ability to run a highly stressed solid lifter cam on the street is going away, modern oils are formulated for roller cams, while you can use additives in the oil, the first time you forget will be the end of the cam and lifters. The modern age really dictates a roller cam for a street engine.

You'd be much better advised to build a 350 or larger with a Gen I B roller block. These are common in most pick-ups from the mid 1980s thru the L-31 Vortec of the mid 90s. An LS would be super if you can pay the tab for one of these. Late model heads such as the Vortec or after market like the SR Torquer in cast iron or the Fastburn in aluminum get you a modern combustion chamber, modern port relationships and the ability of the seats and valves to put up with un-leaded fuel. These blocks can take a roller cam using the factory method for maintaining lifter alignment which is a quantum less expensive than their aftermarket equivalents. Plus the block is set up to use a thrust plate to react cam longitudinal movement which is a whole lot simpler to set up and maintain than the cam button method. These newer one piece rear seal engines are oil tight something that can't be said for the old 302. Piston design has come aways as well, the circular dish piston needed for compression ratio maintenance with a small chamber head has given way to the flat top or D dish design, use of which depends on how hard you can push the compression. A cast iron Vortec style head can accept about 9.2 to 9.5 on unleaded premium, aluminum versions will go to 10-10.5 to 1 without problems.

Bogie
Bogie, I was nodding my head in agreement all he way up to the point where you limited Vortec heads to 9.5:1 on 93 octane. They can go slightly over that limit with 87 octane.

Still many good points though.
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Old 11-13-2008, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul302
hey everyone. I am the new owner of a 1969 Camaro. its a 307 with a 4spd. numbers matching virgin car. never had body hammer hit it. I plan on making it a Z/28. Now this is what i need, a 327 with a 283 crank or a 283 with a 327 crank. I have most of everything else. Date coded 2.02 camel hump heads, 11:10 pistons, and so on. can anyone guide in the right direction to build my dream motor........
Thanks,
Paul
If its your dream motor,I say build it! just be prepared to regear the diff and run the good fuel. Your heads work fine for what your doing,its not your trying to run in the 10's. We used a set of 461X casting's with some great port work on a 327 in a 66 chevelle with 11.5 comp and it will run 11.80's all day long.
As far as street drivabilty? My 69 has way more cubic inches,compression,cam.carb,converter than your planned motor, It might not be street friendly, but I drive it all the time and have a dang good time driving it.

IMO, Build your dream car the way you want it!
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Old 11-14-2008, 06:29 AM
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the real thing

Instead of trying to piece together a 69' 302, I think you should send me a PM so I can just hook you up with the real thing. I know where 2 DZ blocks and sets of heads can be had. I'm not sure what my engine guy wants for the short blocks, but he told me he'd sell me the heads for $300. I can find out though, if you'd like.... Both motors will more then likely need re-built, cleaned, and painted. Not sure if you can still get the same paint they got, but they are some kind of yellow. Let me know if your interested.

I also have a 66 283' myself that runs VERY strong. It was rebuilt in 1996 with F/T pistons and a comp 268 cam. I'd prolly part with it as is for $400-500 or trade for a good set of used aluminum heads.
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