Eagle Crank Thrust Failure 383 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 04-15-2010, 06:46 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Westfield ,Wisconsin
Posts: 8
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Eagle Crank Thrust Failure 383

Has anyone had experience with poorly ground Eagle Brand Crankshaft Thrust surfaces causing bearing failure on recent rebuilds? my engine has 6000 miles on it and was burning oil real bad. after removal, it was sent to the engine rebuilder, who blamed it on Converter ballooning. the problem is that the bearings were fine on the old motor. Even though he said he never had a problem with eagle cranks before, He made sure i was aware of Eagle not standing behind their Cranks. Any info on this would be Greatly appreciated. Thanks, John

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 04-15-2010, 09:33 PM
BOBCRMAN@aol.com's Avatar
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Holly, michigan
Posts: 8,134
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 25
Thanked 269 Times in 252 Posts
Thrust bearing problems are usually caused by non-crank issues. MOST of the manufacturers of Hot Rod equipment do not warranty parts after installation and use.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 04-16-2010, 05:20 AM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 59
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 597 Times in 546 Posts
Are you thinking the TC hasn't ballooned? Have you had a chance to actually see/measure the TC yet?

Because if the converter has ballooned, this can eat the thrust surface/bearing and wouldn't be the fault of the crank.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 04-16-2010, 11:32 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, Wa
Posts: 6,856
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 4
Thanked 458 Times in 393 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by KutzlerTrans
Has anyone had experience with poorly ground Eagle Brand Crankshaft Thrust surfaces causing bearing failure on recent rebuilds? my engine has 6000 miles on it and was burning oil real bad. after removal, it was sent to the engine rebuilder, who blamed it on Converter ballooning. the problem is that the bearings were fine on the old motor. Even though he said he never had a problem with eagle cranks before, He made sure i was aware of Eagle not standing behind their Cranks. Any info on this would be Greatly appreciated. Thanks, John
From what I've seen, Eagle has had a spate of poorly machined and out of dimension thrust faces in recent years. You don't appear to be alone. With all this Chinese made stuff you have to be very careful some of its quite good and some of it is just junk. The good vendors weed out the junk and scrap it rather than sell it, but this runs your cost up close to that of American made parts. Others just let the buyer beware, it holds the cost down and they just blame all sorts of other things for the failure event. Have you any idea how much power it takes to balloon a converter, are you getting that kind of power?

Bogie
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 04-16-2010, 11:34 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Westfield ,Wisconsin
Posts: 8
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Balooning

Convertor ballooning would also exert the same amount of force on the pump rotor, causing pump failure, which is not the case. I also hold in my hand the original main caps from the old engine and they are fine. Same trans for three yrs. A 700r4 with a .500 boost sleeve is not enough to cause the convertor to push out hard enough to fail a crank. If it were the case, I'd be having allot of Pissed off customers. If i hadn't changed the oil every 1000 miles, this problem would have surfaced quicker. The rings were full of metal causing serious oil consumption. The Engine rebuilder blames the trans, But as a Transmission Specialist, I know my trans. If i am wrong, I will learn. The Engine rpm is no higher than the 350 that came out. Any help on this would be appreciated.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 04-16-2010, 11:55 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Westfield ,Wisconsin
Posts: 8
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Ballooning

Just to clarify, Ballooning and convertor charge pressure are separate forces.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 04-16-2010, 11:57 AM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 59
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 597 Times in 546 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by KutzlerTrans
The rings were full of metal causing serious oil consumption. The Engine rebuilder blames the trans, But as a Transmission Specialist, I know my trans.
That ballooning was even mentioned in the first place fooled me into thinking this was a high performance vehicle, being used as such. If this is just a dodge being used by the rebuilder, and the vehicle isn't capable of ballooning a TC (either by design OR how it was used), then that's a different animal.

There any unexplained vibration? Is it externally balanced? One piece or two piece rear main seal? If it's a one piece seal crank, there can be an externally weighted flexplate used that does not have the correct counter weight. An externally balanced 383 stroker will require externally balanced damper and flexplate that matches the stroke.

If it comes to litigation, I suppose another expert witness (that doesn't say what the first mechanic says) would help.

I would photograph every stage of the disassembly, if not possible, at least photograph in detail all of the parts, including any unmistakable identifiers.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 04-16-2010, 01:18 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Westfield ,Wisconsin
Posts: 8
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Convertor ballooning 700r4

I just received a fax from Precision Convertors of new hampdon, Stating that they have Never had an instance were a 700r4 Style (4842) Convertor ballooned. I did not say the Engine Rebuilder is trying to weasle out of his responsibilities. I will leave this for you folks to decide. Its easy to shift the blame, But in this case, The evidence will speak for itself. I am accountable for what i sell. If i buy a convertor and the Lockup lining comes off, I warranty the whole job. Even faulty parts. I have found that word of mouth is your best friend or worst enemy. The integrity of the Engine Rebuilder to stand behind what he sells is in question here. If Eagle has finish problems that cause failures, They should held accountable. Own up, fix it, or get out of the buisiness. This problem may happen to you. Buy the way, Yesterday i spoke with a wholesale engine remanufacturer and he has had a real problem with the Eagle cranks wiping out mains, until he started cleaning up poor grind surfaces. He was man enough to warranty all of the comebacks. Thank you for your input... John
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 04-16-2010, 01:34 PM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 59
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 597 Times in 546 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by KutzlerTrans
I just received a fax from Precision Convertors of new hampdon, Stating that they have Never had an instance were a 700r4 Style (4842) Convertor ballooned. I did not say the Engine Rebuilder is trying to weasle out of his responsibilities. I will leave this for you folks to decide. Its easy to shift the blame, But in this case, The evidence will speak for itself. I am accountable for what i sell. If i buy a convertor and the Lockup lining comes off, I warranty the whole job. Even faulty parts. I have found that word of mouth is your best friend or worst enemy. The integrity of the Engine Rebuilder to stand behind what he sells is in question here. If Eagle has finish problems that cause failures, They should held accountable. Own up, fix it, or get out of the buisiness. This problem may happen to you. Buy the way, Yesterday i spoke with a wholesale engine remanufacturer and he has had a real problem with the Eagle cranks wiping out mains, until he started cleaning up poor grind surfaces. He was man enough to warranty all of the comebacks. Thank you for your input... John
John, if ALL businessmen had your ethics, this would be a non-issue.

FWIW, I personally had not heard of any especially bad rash of problems w/Eagle cranks recently- although awhile ago there were reports of problems of (but not limited to) the finish of the thrust surfaces being too rough- this causing thrust bearing wear- even though the end float was checked to be OK. You might look into that in THIS case (the finish quality, that is).

If the crank has been on someone's shelf for a long time, it might even be one of the ones from back when. I would suggest looking it over for any stampings that might indicate a date of manufacture, that might tie it into a bad lot.

Good luck.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 04-16-2010, 02:44 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: At Speed
Age: 51
Posts: 1,363
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 2
Thanked 34 Times in 32 Posts
Is the damage to the thrust on the rear of the journal? Or, is it on both? It the crank damaged or just the bearing? Is it confined to just the upper or lower half?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 04-16-2010, 02:51 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, Wa
Posts: 6,856
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 4
Thanked 458 Times in 393 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by KutzlerTrans
I just received a fax from Precision Convertors of new hampdon, Stating that they have Never had an instance were a 700r4 Style (4842) Convertor ballooned. I did not say the Engine Rebuilder is trying to weasle out of his responsibilities. I will leave this for you folks to decide. Its easy to shift the blame, But in this case, The evidence will speak for itself. I am accountable for what i sell. If i buy a convertor and the Lockup lining comes off, I warranty the whole job. Even faulty parts. I have found that word of mouth is your best friend or worst enemy. The integrity of the Engine Rebuilder to stand behind what he sells is in question here. If Eagle has finish problems that cause failures, They should held accountable. Own up, fix it, or get out of the buisiness. This problem may happen to you. Buy the way, Yesterday i spoke with a wholesale engine remanufacturer and he has had a real problem with the Eagle cranks wiping out mains, until he started cleaning up poor grind surfaces. He was man enough to warranty all of the comebacks. Thank you for your input... John
A couple things to lok for.

If there's anything left of the thrust faces, the crank's that had problems had a cross hatch finish on the thrust surface not looking unlike what you'd see for a cylinder wall finish, instead of a smooth surface.

The other problem common to thrust bearings is not getting the clearance correct and not getting the upper and lower halves to have the thrust surface smooth across their mating surface. That is one half of the bearing projects above the other. These must meet very smoothly, if not the step between the halves will wipe the oil wedge off and the thrust face of the crank will quickly fail. Many builders just don't pay enough time to insuring this is correct. You have to set the thrust mains into the block and cap. Then inspect both sides for a smooth surface across their interface. Adjust as required, this can range from removing bearing material with oiled wet/dry sand paper to dinging on the surface with a soft hammer. Then disassemble and install all the mains and the crank ans torque it up. Then pry the crank from one end to the other and measure the thrust clearance. Not much can be done for too wide except to replace the crank, for too narrow determine the dimension to be reduced, then take it apart and oil sand the bearing's thrust faces always maintaining the perpendicularity to the crank center and the smoothness of the halves interface. This can be a real time consuming effort to get right, but if it isn't the parts won't last long.

Bogie
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 04-16-2010, 03:28 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Westfield ,Wisconsin
Posts: 8
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Crank Thrust

Unfortunately at this time, i am not in possession of the crank. I will look at the other side grind when i go over there. I can remember having transmission pump seals coming back after six months with ft seal leaks. we traced the problem to the finish on the torque convertor hub wearing away the bushing from pump side load. I could actually catch my fingernail dragging it across the hub. This is, by the way, a one piece rear seal crank. Internally balance with no vibrations. Thanks, John
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cam help please Cory 43 Engine 30 03-26-2010 02:52 PM
could it be a 383 stroker??? elcaminodragster Engine 12 11-21-2007 06:28 PM
Dart Iron Eagle Heads For a 383 stroker truckster69 Engine 3 01-05-2005 02:10 PM
383 Setup, need advice william27103 Engine 7 06-07-2004 09:57 PM
383 Crank/block problem V8 S-10 Engine 7 04-30-2003 05:18 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.