eating my words - Page 4 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #46 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2013, 07:39 AM
How fast is fast enough?
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 29
Posts: 8,717
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 17
Thanked 289 Times in 269 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogg View Post
Just thought I'd include some info on a small inch combo that GM did using existing available OEM parts.

GM Raceshop did a GEN 2 L99 using a 3.73" (265/305)bore and the 94-96 L99 3.00" stroke.

At the time, the ZZ3/4 roller cam was in the prototype phase of development 208░/221░ 0.481"/0.510" on a 112░LSA.
5.94" stock PM L99 rods
Crane H-11 tool steel springs
single roller timing chain 14088783 with roller crnk gear 14088784
LT1 heads
LT1 intake manifold
Camaro 75mm MAF and air intake elbow'
HPC coated 1.5" x 30" primary headers
Flowmaster Mandrel bent 2 1/2" exhaust
1995 sequential fuel injection PCM
Lightweight 10lb. PMGR LT1 starter 10465293
Impala SS fuel sender and pump assembly

Complete 1995 L99 evaporative and exhaust emission comtrols including:
electric AIR pump
charcoal canister
sealed fuel filler cap
dual monolith catalytic converters

1995 GM 4l60e
PCM controlled sjift points calibrated for 7000rpm WOT upshifts
High stall L35 4.3 Vortec V6 locking torque converter p/n 24202310

1990 T-truck 4wd S-10 7.625" rear axle
Auburn limited slip (30 spline/3.23:1 and up carrier)
4.56:1 ring and pinion.

The 1995 265 cid rpo L99 V8 used a 3.73" bore and 3.00" stroke
8.8:1 compression

On the engine dyno GM got:
329hp@ 6500rpm
273 lb/ft torque@6000rpm

Adding 37 cubes to the L99 by using the 302/327/350 4" bore would of course bring down the peak power/torque rpms a little bit, and would give more power/torque overall.

IMO sounds like a fun little engine for something light, with low gears and lotsa converter.
GM installed this engine in a 1955 210 post Chev car.

LT4 heads are an excellent 195cc intake runner head with the small 54.4cc chamber, but since you already have a couple sets of LT1 heads, porting would bring the LT1 up to and exceed the LT4 units. That is , if you decided to port anything, but with the smaller cubes, I might be tempted to leave them alone and keep velocities up to promote torque. Since you have 2 sets, you can get her up and running, and swap em out later if desired.

peace
Hog

it had a hp peak at 6500rpm with the 208/221 cam?! are you sure that wasn't an 847 cam? I'd never expect that high of a peak with that small of intake duration.

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #47 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2013, 07:59 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Woodstock
Posts: 850
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 2
Thanked 68 Times in 62 Posts
Here are the specs for all the GEN 2 engines built between 1992-1997.


peace
Hog
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #48 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2013, 08:23 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Woodstock
Posts: 850
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 2
Thanked 68 Times in 62 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
it had a hp peak at 6500rpm with the 208/221 cam?! are you sure that wasn't an 847 cam? I'd never expect that high of a peak with that small of intake duration.
100% sure it was the ZZ3/4 cam, remember we are talking about LT1 heads/intake designed for 350 cubes, being run on a 265 cube engine.

For the L99 from GM, the L99 used the same cam the 94-96 iron head LT1 and the 1996-2003 L30 305/L31 350 Vortec engines used. 191░/196░ 0.412"/0.428" on a 111░LSA.
L99 also used smaller intake runners, chambers which keeps the rpm band reasonable and torque up on teh L99
It produces 200 horsepower at 5000 rpm and 240 lb.-ft. torque at 2400 rpm.

The ZZ3/4 10185071 hydraulic roller camshaft is used in the Fastburn 385 crate engine(p/n-12496769) which uses the 210cc intake runner Fastburn heads which were used on the 430 copies of the ZZ430hp/350 crate engine crate engine and it is rated at 385hp@ 5600rpm and 385 lb/ft torque@4000rpm. Add the LT4 hotcam kit(1.6:1 LT4'like roller tip and fulcrum-218░/228░ 0.525"/0.525" 112░LSA hyd roller cam) 750cfm carb and you have the ZZ430 engine miuns the serialized ZZ430/350 valve cover)

When the same ZZ3/4 10185071 is used in the ZZ4 crate engine (p/n-24502609) which uses the L90 aluminum TPI heads the rating is 355hp@5250rpm/405lb/ft@3500rpm. So the smaller 163cc intake runner L98/ZZ4 heads bring the peak power rpm down slightly as compared to the 210cc Fasburn 385 crate engine, although they both use teh same ZZ3/4 camshaft.

Another GM crate that uses the 10185071 ZZ3/4 hyd.roller camshaft is the Circle Track(CT)350/400(p/n88958604). It is rated at 400hp@5500rpm/400lb/ft torque@4500rpm, again with the large 210cc intake runner Fastburn almuninum heads.

So we have 3 GM crates that use the ZZ3/4 cam with peak horsepower at rpms ranging from 5250rpm-5600rpm on 350 cubes, take away 85 cubic inches or 10.6 cubic inches per cylinder while using th4e same cam and other induction components and I dont think it's a stretch to see the peak power rpm go up to 6500rpm.

That was fun, I got to dive into my stack of GMPP (now CPP) catalogues. Damn I wish I had a bottomless savings account. I would keep the UPS truck busy at my address.

peace
Hog
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #49 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2013, 06:00 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 29
Posts: 8,717
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 17
Thanked 289 Times in 269 Posts
Well to give an update I cleaned the block and did most of the prep work tonight. Honed, enlarged and smoothed the oil returns, ported the rear main cap oil passage, and cleaned all the gasket surfaces. I'll need to clean it again prior to paint and assembly but I hope to have the short block together this weekend. I'll also be calling mike jones about a cam regrind. I'm looking for something like the voodoo 270hr but maybe a little milder, only looking for about .525" lift with 1.6 rockers, Going for low maintenance, we'll see what mike has to say.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #50 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2013, 07:46 PM
vinniekq2's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: BC,Canada
Age: 56
Posts: 7,456
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 292
Thanked 709 Times in 684 Posts
The ZO-6 427 has an intake duration around 210║ and it makes peak power at 6300 rpm.The heads flow huge numbers so that is where the breathing comes from.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #51 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2013, 07:05 AM
How fast is fast enough?
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 29
Posts: 8,717
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 17
Thanked 289 Times in 269 Posts
I attached a couple pictures, the cam tunnel was the hardest area to get clean (honestly the only area that took any real effort), probably because its the hardest to get to.

I bought 5 cans of oven cleaner from the dollar store, have used 2 and 1/2 so far and this **** is AMAZING. This block was uglier than sin with 1/4" of backed on grime in some areas and a couple soakings of oven cleaner over a day followed by a quick washing with Purple Power diluted with hot water and some plastic scrub brushes and 95% of the block is spotless, which is good enough for me to do the basic block prep work and then go back for further cleaning.

I've talked about Purple Power being good before (which i used a diluted mixture to clean the caps, lifters, small pieces, and all the bolts and its still amazing) but the dollar store oven cleaner is just as awesome. For an investment of less than $10 I'll have this block clean- a shop can charge $100+

Lastly, I included a picture of the ported cap, I also did the oil returns in the block (no pic) but this cap mod takes all of 2 minutes with a grinder and a stone and really aids flow. Some grind away a lot more and really push the cap to the max going all the way to the edge of the gasket but the only real restriction is the extra casting right in front of the oil passage through the cap, I'm sure if you hold a cap in front of you you'll see what I'm talking about. When doing the block I found one return passage was blocked by some extra casting material, be sure to pay attention to the rear drain backs when prepping your own block. I'll be running a HV pump with a ported inlet and am trying to decide on what spring to use. This oiling system will be overkill and cost me a little power but since it came in with a spun rod (very common mode of failure for this engine type) I'm taking no risks.

I'll try to take some pictures of this project as it goes along, as people have asked for photos in the past and I never thought to take any.


Most of you probably don't care for allthis rambling, but for those that do there it is.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1306.JPG
Views:	46
Size:	1.67 MB
ID:	98682   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1307.jpg
Views:	53
Size:	704.1 KB
ID:	98690   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1308.jpg
Views:	36
Size:	884.7 KB
ID:	98698  
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #52 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2013, 08:14 AM
F-BIRD'88's Avatar
Yada Yada Yada
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 9,574
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 3
Thanked 338 Times in 335 Posts
If you don't get the engine compression ratio correct on this 302 CID build its going to be lame.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #53 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2013, 09:01 AM
How fast is fast enough?
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 29
Posts: 8,717
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 17
Thanked 289 Times in 269 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 View Post
If you don't get the engine compression ratio correct on this 302 CID build its going to be lame.
flat top pistons and Lt1 heads milled .030" with a .026" gasket, don't know piston to deck clearance yet.

It'll be around 10:1, maybe a hair over. Regardless of what it is it won't be changing so it's nothing I'm going to get worked up about. It'll probably run just fine on 87 octane.

Being down a few hp isn't anything I'm about to worry about on such a cheap build.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #54 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2013, 10:05 AM
How fast is fast enough?
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 29
Posts: 8,717
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 17
Thanked 289 Times in 269 Posts
Talked to Mike- out of my price range, talked to Scott at Delta Cams, and they will be doing the cam for me. the LT1 forums seem to be popular with Delta regrinds so hopefully it all works out well.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #55 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2013, 08:05 AM
How fast is fast enough?
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 29
Posts: 8,717
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 17
Thanked 289 Times in 269 Posts
A shot of the rotating assembly going in, nothing fancy: L99 crank and rods, ARP bolts, speedpro hyper pistons, sealed power rings.

A shot of the chamber side of the heads before they go to the machine shop, just did a basic clean up, again nothing fancy.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1320.JPG
Views:	116
Size:	207.3 KB
ID:	99153   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1321.JPG
Views:	76
Size:	252.7 KB
ID:	99161  
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #56 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2013, 09:26 AM
F-BIRD'88's Avatar
Yada Yada Yada
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 9,574
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 3
Thanked 338 Times in 335 Posts
I trust you are going to get them planed now that they have been destroyed with Zip disks.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #57 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2013, 10:15 AM
How fast is fast enough?
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 29
Posts: 8,717
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 17
Thanked 289 Times in 269 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 View Post
I trust you are going to get them planed now that they have been destroyed with Zip disks.
I'm having them milled as much as the shop can, I'm seeing .050" is possible.


FWIW though I have never have a single gasket failure on a surface I'm used a disc on- everything from heads to exhaust to thermostat housings, etc. I'm not saying its the "correct" way, as it isn't, BUT so far I haven't had a problem. I also always use a self applied coating of some sort too though- never install a gasket dry.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #58 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2013, 06:36 PM
vinniekq2's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: BC,Canada
Age: 56
Posts: 7,456
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 292
Thanked 709 Times in 684 Posts
AP72 is the L99 crank,"cast"?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #59 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2013, 06:42 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 29
Posts: 8,717
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 17
Thanked 289 Times in 269 Posts
Yes. And pm rods.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #60 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2013, 07:35 PM
Richiehd's Avatar
JS-70
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Jupiter FL
Posts: 831
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 145
Thanked 55 Times in 48 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
Talked to Mike- out of my price range, talked to Scott at Delta Cams, and they will be doing the cam for me. the LT1 forums seem to be popular with Delta regrinds so hopefully it all works out well.
You generally get what you pay for. I use Mike Jones exclusively, I like the 1 on 1 service. I find his prices very competitive.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
just a few words 22RATROD Introduce Yourself 3 09-29-2007 06:35 PM
Something words to consider Irelands child Off-Topic 10 04-08-2007 05:00 PM
Who is eating my condensors???? Mrfixmaster Electrical 24 04-25-2006 02:13 PM
eating up starters jesse01 Engine 9 03-16-2005 08:11 PM
My engine is eating AL! mcbroom Engine 10 12-01-2003 07:29 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.