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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 07-20-2005, 10:19 AM
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I do not run the oil filter bypass. All oil is filtered all of the time.

The metal on the dipstip was very weird, because though It was on the dipstick none seemed to be in the oil when I drained it yesterday. All metal that I found was in the filter.
The only way that I can pull the pan is to pull the engine (88 camaro) so...hmmm.

From what formula says, it sounds like normal stuff. I guess I am going to baby it for a little bit and then check the filter again. If it collects a lot more dust then I will have to pull the engine

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 07-20-2005, 10:46 AM
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Come on killer, your killing me here.......

Particles the size of 1mm x 1mm and floaties in the oil. Some small particles and a little bit of stuff in the filter I can agree is normal.

I will also say that 30psi is not enough oil pressure at high RPM when hot. What were your bearing clearances? I have to run 20-50wt due to high clearances or my oil pressure is about like yours. I am running .0025 and .003 rod and main clearance, but my turbo drinks alot of oil as well to compound the problem.

Chris
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 07-20-2005, 11:16 AM
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Mains: .0025-.0027
Rods: .0025

PSI cold: 60
PSI warm: Idle: 10, otherwise: 30.

what was with 10w30, i just put in 10w40 to see if that helps.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 07-20-2005, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboS10
Come on killer, your killing me here.......

Particles the size of 1mm x 1mm and floaties in the oil. Some small particles and a little bit of stuff in the filter I can agree is normal.

I will also say that 30psi is not enough oil pressure at high RPM when hot. What were your bearing clearances? I have to run 20-50wt due to high clearances or my oil pressure is about like yours. I am running .0025 and .003 rod and main clearance, but my turbo drinks alot of oil as well to compound the problem.

Chris
Well, to be honest with you chris, I think you flubbed when you said that the oil filter will catch all the particles from break in, because it certainly does not, and it is very common to see quite a bit of bearing particles in the oil after the first few runs on an engine. I was seeing bearing particles in all of the motors I've built for at least the first two oil changes, and thats just in the bottom of the oil drain pan, there were also some in the filter, but the filter does NOT catch everything all the time. In fact, it never does.

I corrected myself for not having read that he saw this metal on the dipstick. Generally (as I said earlier) if you see it on the stick you do have a problem.

You'll always have particles in your oil, and because he described the particles as "dust" it sounded somewhat normal. I'll bet if you ran your S10 for a couple thousand miles and looked in drain pan, you'd see some particles.

As far as size is concerned, any large chunks or flakes that are bigger than dust, I would be concerned about. BTW, I don't have any pens with a 1mm tip. Most of the ones in my office are .5mm. The point is, most particles aren't going to be square, 99% of them are going to be flakes; probably 1/10 as thick as they are wide.

K
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 07-20-2005, 02:58 PM
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No, I did not flub. If the oil filter is letting metal particles through there is a problem. It may be a *****ty oil filter problem, but a problem none the less. That is not to say you might not see some stuff in the pan or oil filter for a little while, but it should not be big pieces that are 1mm in size.

Anyhow, I have run plenty of engines in and I have never noticed metal flakes in the oil except when I had major issues. You should definately not see anything from the bearings. The bearings ride on a film of oil and if they are wearing something is wrong. The rings and flat tappet cam on the other hand could make a little bit of dibris I suppose, but it should not be significant. I certainly dont think it should be enough to see it floating in the oil. If it is making enough metal that the oil is filled with flakes that are not getting filtered out, I just cant call that normal. Wear from rings or cam should be basically a black dust from the cast iron.....I suppose it could look like glitter in the right light, but I have never seen this except on my engine that went to a early grave.

We should get one of the engine builders over here.....I am curious is this glitter oil is really normal.

Chris
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Old 07-20-2005, 03:18 PM
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i think iroc has already answered his own question. PISTON SLAP in a fresh engine. i dont think so. oil pressure low at high idle in a fresh engine. not good. metal flakes in oil big enough to see on dipstick. warning. your engine has just told you that it has wiped out a rod bearing and is continuing to self destruct as you run it. the PISTON SLAP is probably bearing knock due to not having a oil film between the bearing and crank because oil clearance at this point is probably off the scale.= low oil pressure. just my thoughts.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 07-20-2005, 03:52 PM
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put a magnetic oil plug in your oil pan drain, do it fast when cold, to keep from loseing to much oil when you screw it in
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Old 07-20-2005, 04:06 PM
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Put a secondary Frantz toilet paper filter on it and catch all the crap.
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Old 07-20-2005, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bamfasm
i think iroc has already answered his own question. PISTON SLAP in a fresh engine. i dont think so. oil pressure low at high idle in a fresh engine. not good. metal flakes in oil big enough to see on dipstick. warning. your engine has just told you that it has wiped out a rod bearing and is continuing to self destruct as you run it. the PISTON SLAP is probably bearing knock due to not having a oil film between the bearing and crank because oil clearance at this point is probably off the scale.= low oil pressure. just my thoughts.
Read my other post about the Piston slap...it does not sound, or act like, a rod bearing. I have spun rod bearings and it does not sound like that at all. The noise is loudest when the engine is cold, but once it comes up to temp it is not noticeable. Note that the engine does have forged pistons.

I agree that it would be a good idea to get some engine builders into this thread; who are they and how can I get them into here?
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Old 07-20-2005, 07:01 PM
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oil

Iroc What typ of engine assembly lube did you use????

What i have found is most lubes contain additives that will make the oil appear to have fine metal dust floating it it at the first oil change. if you get a finger full and rub it around it will not be gritty at all.... So if you have actually felt any typ of grit you have a problem....

Me personally i have never had any typ of metal in any engine i ever built........EXCEPT the ones that had problems.... There is nothing inside a new engine that should create grit...... never,,, ever!!!!!!! Yes there will be a micro amount of debris generated by start up but nothing you should ever be able to put you finger on, so to speak.....

Post a picture of what you found, Thats a good way for us to get a handle on it......

keith
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 07-20-2005, 08:22 PM
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I used the federal-mogul lube. It was green and very thick and sticky.

Yes, some of the metal is gritty. Some is so fine that it is not, but some is. I'm not sure what I could post a picture of, considering that the old filter is in the garbage.

When I cut the filter apart there was a grey layer of "goo" at the bottom of it (kinda like when you burn the clutches outta the trans and it has that grey stuff at the bottom of the pan). When I swiped my finger through it there were some little chunks and mostly fine-ground metal dust. There was a good layer of it at the bottom and when I rubbed the "goo" inbetween my two fingers I could very much feel the grit.

Nothing like this came from the oil pan though. I have not been able to see what lies one the bottom of the pan, but the oil didn't bring any metal or grit out with it. Everything that I found was in the filter *except for the metal on the dipstick..?*

Listen, if this was YOUR engine, what would you do: Drive for a while to see what the new filter collects OR tear it down before driving it again?

Thanks guys.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 07-20-2005, 09:55 PM
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http://www.hotrodders.com/t49238.htm...ght=oil+change


I basically had the same concerns over my 388 after the first oil change. THe above a pictures of the filter element and the bottom of the oil drain pan. BEARINGS BREAK IN!!! They leave quite a bit of material behind, more so than any other component in your motor. Every experienced builder I talked to told me to chill out and run it. I've been hammering the crap out of this motor for a year now and its every bit as tight as it was the day I fired it up.

K
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 07-21-2005, 05:02 AM
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eninge

Iroc, if it was mine it would come right back out, But thats me I am the typ of person that does not like metal in my engines...

killer, i hate to dis agree with the professional engine builders that you have talked to but there should be no break-in of bearings.

Ask them when should the crank touch the bearings to create this debris????

I like to build engines where the crank never touches the bearings, but then again i am always the odd man out on this stuff......

keith
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 07-21-2005, 06:23 AM
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I am just going to say it again......bearings should not break in. They should be as shiny as a new pennie when you take them out after break in or hard running for that matter. The only thing that will come off of bearings is that odd dark colored coating if you dont wipe it off before assembly. If the bearings are wearing then something is wrong........rings are the only thing that should wear in and that should happen relatively fast if the bore finish is right.

Now if you have rods out of round or a crank that has too much run out...then certainly the bearings have to wear in, but at that point you already have issues. If machine work is dead money then they dont. I know guys that disassemble race engines for inspection and run the same bearings again and again. My machinist is one of them. He said they can resuse H series bearings on multiple tear downs for at least a season on roundy round cars unless something goes wrong.

Chris
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 07-21-2005, 06:38 AM
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The oil pressures stated are typical of worn out GM motors, not a fresh engine (unless main bearing tolerances were excessive). Every motor that we have done that showed the same oil pressures and foreign material in the oil had destroyed main bearings. I would pull the motor and go thru it completely before it becomes toast and EXPENSIVE!

Trees
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