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Old 04-02-2008, 07:00 PM
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Edelbrock 750 tuning

I did a search on the usual questions for the Edelbrock carbs. My car is a '62 Corvette, '70 LT-1 shortblock, Dart Iron Eagle Platinum heads (200) running about 10 to 1 comp. HEI distributor, 36 degrees total, headers, Torker manifold, new Edelbrock 1407 carb.

The car still has a bog from a stop. I went one notch on the pump linkage and went to the third notch, but haven't driven it as yet. With revs up it seems fine and from 2,000 rpm up it's quite strong. It seems to be running a little lean as plugs are more white than tan. I have the tuning kit with metering rods, jets and springs. I'm a little confused on the springs. The carb comes with the orange #5 springs. Which springs should I try to make it run a little richer when first starting to accelerate. Also I'm a little confused on the meaning of Cruise Mode and Power Mode and which is affecting the bog and rpm under 2,000.

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Last edited by GCD1962; 04-02-2008 at 07:17 PM.
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Old 04-02-2008, 07:38 PM
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Appreciate the comments on the manifold. None of the other Edelbrocks fit a '62 even with a dropped base air cleaner. I have a Weiand Stealth but it is not port matched and the ports are quite small compared to the ports on the heads. I have been running the Torker for over 15 years, but had a Holley 750 and never a bog problem. I am running a good amount of advance. 10 degree initial without the vac advance hooked up. Almost 25 degrees with it hooked up and is all in at around 2,200 rpm. I'm pretty sure if I can get a few more minor adjustments it will be ok as it seems almost there. I'll change the metering rods as suggested if the positioning of the accell pump rod doesn't solve the problem. Cam in the motor is the stock LT-1 solid lifter cam. At idle I have around 13-14 hg
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Old 04-02-2008, 07:52 PM
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go to the pink lift springs on the metering rods.

If that does not fix it call Edel...you need a bigger accel. squiter nozzle...
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Old 04-03-2008, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
Which LT-1 cam are you using. the older 1969-early 1970 version .485"-.485" 30-30 lash "346" "30-30 cam" or the revised 1971+ version. .455"-.485" .024-.28" lash.?
"178" cam

the torker manifold always did have a off idle problem. the holley carb may have been better,but if you swap the manifold for your stealth manifold, you'll really see the difference. is this a automantic or a 4 speed car?

Edelbrock tuning

The older '69-'70 version. Came with the short block right from GM. It's a 4-speed in a '62 Vette, so not a real heavy car.
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Old 04-03-2008, 10:33 PM
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FBird did you not meen they come with 7547 metering rods and replace them with 7147 rods? This would richen it up in the lower power range.
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Old 04-04-2008, 10:28 AM
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I do agree with F-bird....
maybe explaining it in a different way will help...

preface:
the 13-14Hg at idle honestly tells you next to nothing for drivability..the Edelbrock carb has a "independent" idle circuit which is tuned with the blades closed.. versus.... the Holly which can have the blades open a bit...

at around 1400rpms, the Edelbrock transitions over to work on the actual primaries fuel supply and at that point... with very little timing in the motor... there is next to no Hg to make even a crummy A/F mix suspension so the carb is feeding "liquid" gas into the cylinders which makes "no" power and feels like a "bog" (all because of the carb is a little bit to big and the HUGE intake open plenum area designed to work at minumum 2500rpms)

by increasing the base starting point timing, the motor will make ALOT more Hg at the lower rpms and that means ALOT MORE TQ due to higher A/F velocity to allow the motor to wind up faster....and not bog due to the way to low Hg

simple demo:
at 10*, the guage reads say 13Hg at idle, vac adv plugged, just turn the base up to 18* and read the guage...
probably it will read 16-18HG+...and now the idle is probably 500rpms+ higher without touching the gas mix screws..."why?"... because at 18* base the carb is now making a more "ideal" A/F suspension with 16-18HG at a much higher "velocity" into the chambers...
the idle rpms went up because the "better mix burn" due to more Hg makes alot more power with the same amount of gas (so the motor can better over come the internal motor friction and load)...

the same thing will happen with more starting point timing while actually driving on the primaries...

NO WOT ALLOWED and low rpms light throttle testing only but:
to actually "see" the HG difference the timing change makes...rig up your guage so you can read it while driving.....
with only 10* base, when you step on the gas just normal the guage will likely read only 5-8HG which means there is no vac advance timing being added and the carb is making a very crummy mix...
change the base to 18* and likely the Hg will read (hopefully?) 12-14Hg with just normal gas pedal which means there is some vacuum advance still in the timing and the carb is making atleast a decent A/F suspension

you definitely need to recurve the dist before messing with the carb

re: the "springs"....
are all about the car wt/gears motor load...
(simplest explaination/example I can think of)
"if" you were going to be towing a 30' boat behind your vette with only 3.0 rear gears and be driving up a steep mountain grades...you would want to use a stronger-higher rated spring for "detonation insurance" just driving normal with such a huge load on the motor....

Hg directly reads the "load" on the motor (lowHG=high load)...the stronger spring will lift the rod to the richer fuel mix rod step at a "less load" amount of Hg to prevent ping...
bottem line:
go richer sooner at a higher Hg when towing the boat.... versus... no need for richer till much lower Hg with a weaker spring when "not" towing the boat...

Last edited by red65mustang; 04-04-2008 at 10:58 AM.
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Old 04-04-2008, 10:55 AM
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RE: Red65Mustang

Thanks for comments. The distributor is a brand new Moroso HEI with 36 degrees total built in. It has an adjustable vac can. I have 10-12 degrees with vac plugged. With it hooked up it reads about 25 degrees with dial back light. I have total advance all in at around 2200 rpm. If I bump initial up to 16-18 degrees with vac plugged, is that too much and what other adjustments should I make, for example would I then adjust the vac can to be all in later, say around 2800 rpm?

I'm still a little confused on the step up springs. To get it richer do I use a stronger spring or weaker spring?

Thanks,
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Old 04-04-2008, 11:42 AM
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A stiffer step-up spring will raise the metering rod higher richening it up possibly too much. Your timing should be set pretty good right now the way it is. The adjustable vac advance is for more or less advancement, not sooner or later.

Here is an example of fine tuning a edlebrock carb.

I have a hand held 5 gas analyzer with a air/fuel ratio function. A perfect A/F on it is 1.000 anything below that is rich, and everything above that is lean. The complaint from my customer that owns the Blown 1973 Corvette in my pictures, is popping back through the carbs sometimes when cold. The carbs are set up with 107 jets, 7542 metering rods, and the step-up spring at 8 inches. At full boost it runs perfectly, but in the lower power circuit it's A/F Ratio is 1.222 (lean). So I ordered 7342 metering rods to richen up the lower power circuit only by a little bit, and I figure it"s A/F ratio will be around 1.050, still on the lean side just a little bit. After I install these metering rods I'll post it's actual A/F Ratio it comes up with.
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Old 04-04-2008, 11:45 AM
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? your mis-reading your dist info

95% of all HEI's have 20* of centrifugal advance capability....

for your dist to show 36*'s ("built in") at only 2200****rpms full centrifugal timing ....the base would "have to be" set at 16* (16base+20centrifugal=36*)

read your total with the light at 10* base above 2200rpms and it will show only 30*

the vac adv can is then adding up to 12* more timing only when the motor is under a light load and the HG is high...

so with 16* base just cruisin' with light throttle at 2200rpms plus the timing total is now 16+20+12=48= pretty normal cruising TT

at 10* base you are only at 42* cruising TT possible and only 30* possible at WOT

****depending on your rear gears and actual car weight...it "may" possibly be able to tolerate full timing at only 2200 and not go "kaboom"....but your cam only wants full timing at closer to 2600-2800rpms...see step one below

re: springs
from my experience, with your set up.... about a 1% chance that changing the springs will help even a tiny bit to solve the bog....
your fighting extremely low HG at low rpms with a load on the motor (which means "NO" low end HP/TQ due to the intake...more base timing is a "partial" fix...
(with a dual plane intake at 2,000 rpms the motor will make close to 300 ft/lbs of TQ "acceleration force" due to much higher Hg and velocity....with more timing to help, the Torker is only making "maybe" 150ft/lbs at 2,000= no acceleration power with a 3,000 lb car)

step one: put atleast one heavier spring in the cent to raise the "all in" rpms...to about 2800
step two: increase the base to 16* and test drive...
step three change the rods to "thinner" (lower numbers) and test drive to see if a bit richer helps (white plugs can possibly be from the gas additives package but more likely it is "cruising" a bit lean)

one you have the timing and basic carb set up fairly close to best..."then" you play with the vac adv adjust to see if it can have a bit better throttle response (and better mpg)

Last edited by red65mustang; 04-04-2008 at 11:52 AM.
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Old 04-04-2008, 02:33 PM
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GCD,
a footnote:
with those very weak 2200rpms springs in the dist....

they may already be adding some centrifugal degrees when the motor is at idle....

best to turn down the idle to as low as the motor will go (300-400 rpms) and read the base timing there with light springs to know for sure 10* is 10*...

ignore the the totally rough idle at 400..and leave the carb alone....it won't hurt anything while you just check the timing base....

(what "may" be happening is the actual true base timing is actually only say 6* and at 750rpms idle the centrifugal is already adding 4* so you think the base is "10")

do the same when you set it to 16* base....turn the idle way down low to be sure none of the centrifugal is present....

(apology...somehow I ALWAYS forget to post that info!!!! for setting base timing)
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Old 04-04-2008, 06:19 PM
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The total advance of 36 degrees at 2,200 rpm is a result of the adjustment of the vac can. The adjustment controls the rate of the advance, not the amount of advance as it stops at the same degree level. ie. with the initial advance with vac disconnected and plugged of 10-12 degrees if I increase the rate it will show at idle with the vac connected of approx 25 degrees and reaches total at 2,200 rpm. If I slow down the rate, it will read about 18-20 degrees at idle with the vac connected and reaches total at approx 3,000 rpm, and so on. The springs in the distributor are the medium strength ones that give the total advance of 36 degrees.

I can not slow down the idle too much. It is the solid lifter 70 LT-1 cam which has a normal idle of about 900 rpm. I doubt it would even run at 500 or 600 rpm.

I appreciate the help and any other suggestions. I did move the accel pump setting up one more notch, but haven't had a chance to try it as yet (weather not the best around here). From there I will adjust the vac can to get total around 2,800 rpm and bump the initial up to about 16 degrees. and from there if need I'll change to slightly richer rods.

down the road I probably will put on the Weiand Stealth, but it needs to be port matched.
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Old 04-04-2008, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
if you depend on full manifold vacuum (as a vacuum source) at idle, Whenever you punch it, the manifold vacuum drops to 0 and the spark timing drops as well ( right when you need it the most)
With the early LT-1 cam (254-254@.050" .485-.485" lift 114LSA) you need a lot more initial static timing at idle for a clean idle and off idle response.
The trouble is you have a stock, generic distributor that is not set up specificly for a motor with a big cam like the old Z28/LT1 cam.
You need to recurve the distributor by limiting the amount of mechanical advance travel from 20-24deg (typical) to around 12 deg of travel.
This new curve will allow 24deg at idle static, with 12deg of advance for a total of 36deg. You want the full advance all in around 2800-3400rpm.
You want a smooth controled advance curve. The real light advance springs are too light tensioned to give a smooth curve and tend to bounce around at idle.
Once you have limited the advance travel to 12deg in the distributor, 1 light and 1 medium spring will give the proper smooth advance rate that tops out at 2800-3400 rpm.
Then plug vacuum advance into ported vacuum and adjust the vacuum adv can so that you get an additional 12-15deg of vacuum advance on the hiway at hi speed part throttle cruise. Your total combined mech+vac advance on the hiway while cruising will be 48 to 51deg max.
Minor fine tuning may be required but it will be very close to this.

To prove my point and show your the effect of increased static timing at idle has on the throttle response off idle, you can temp lock out the distributor advance curve by removing the advance weights and springs and tiewrapping the advance mechanism fully advanced so it cannot move. Wap two electrical tie wraps around the advance mechanism and orient the tie wrap knots down so that the rotor will go back on. Start it up and with vac disconnected set the timing at 36deg BTDC at idle. Now the timing does not advance with rpm.
reset the idle speed and idle mixture for 800rpm idle with best possible vacuum. (let the motor fully warm up first).
Go for a ride with the vac advance disconnected.
The idle should be a lot cleaner. the off idle throttle response and acceleratin will be better.

Now you know what to do and can tear down your distributor to modify the advance curve for 24deg at idle +12deg mech advance for a 36deg total and add 12-15deg of additional ported vac advance for high speed cruising.
Installing a advance stop bushing (alone) to limit the mech advance travel is usually not enough. I weld up the end of the advance pin slot to limit the advance to about 12deg. You need to look at how the advance mechanism works so that you weld up the right end of the advance slot. You want to weld up (limit) the end of the travel, not the beginning. Or your advance springs will be slack at idle. Make sure you weld up the right end of the slot.
You can combine the welding up of the advance pin slot with different advance stop pin bushings to gain some adjustability.

The torker intake manifold as a whole, will never be as smooth as a dual plane manifold in the critical idle to 2500rpm range, you'll be much, much happier with a modern dual plane manifold, especially with the new modified LT-1 cam friendly advance curve.
The fuel distribution in the manifold is poor at and near idle throttle settings.
The holley carb was better because it actually "idles" on all 4 barrels. A Edelbrock AFB only idles on the primaries.
The AFB power step up spring should be selected by installing a vacuum gauge on the manifold and going for a ride. Drive the car as slow as possible in first gear.
Let the car idle along down the road in first gear with no throttle and watch the manifold vacuum. What ever the gauge reads during this road test, select a step up spring that is rated a little lower. So if you have 6" of manifold vacuum while idling along down the road, in first gear, you need to use a 4.5" or 5.5" step up spring set to control the primary metering rods.

I recomended a leaner (7547) cruise metering rod change for the dual plane manifold. Not for the torker manifold.
Next, once the distributor is properly modified you eed a selection of edelbrock accelerator pump shooters to dial in the accelorator pump shot as you open the throttle. You'll have to experiment with different size shooter discharge nozzles to see which one is best. A .025" shooter is stock, you'll likely need a richer .031" to .037" shooter for your motor. (Edelbrock service part) You can fine tune the shot timing by moving the accel linkage rod to different holes on the accel linkage.
This is how you dial in the idle to 2000rpm drivability. The mains don't start flowing fuel until about 2500rpm. The metering rods cruise step diameter control the fuel curve in the 2500rpm to 4000rpm range while cruising at part throttle, Not the idle to 2000rpm range. Once you get further into the throttle and the manifold vacuum drops below the power piston step spring rating ( 4.5") the the power circuit kicks in, (metering rods start to lift out of the jet)
All the fuel flow in the critical idle to 2000rpm driving range at part throttle is controled by the idle circuit and idle transfer slot circuit. (not the rods and jets)

I highly recomend you try your Weiand stealth manifold With this #8725 carb spacer over the torker if you do a lot more cruisig then racing. You'll be a lot happier with the whole driving experience, overall with a dual plane manifold.
Further, if again, you do more cruising then driving, a swap to the newer, revised 1971 and later ("178") LT-1 cam with revised timing (242-254@.050 .455-.485lift 116LSA) will just drive a lot lot nicer overall with its modified intake lobe specs. makes jsut as much power with more torque than the older version LT-1 cam.
You can buy this revised lat(er) 1970,1971 to 1972 350 LT-1 cam with lifters from Summit for $165.
late revised GM LT-1 cam+ lifter set

Crane cams #113841 ( F278-2) is another good choice. It's very similar.

If you can fit the old torker manifold under your hood, you should be able to fit a mid rise dual plane manifold like the new Edelbrock performer EPS.
GOOD one! Procedures like this I use all of the time and has become second nature for me. I did not do well in journalism in school, I can see you did and thank you for being able to put down in writing what I cannot.

Stephen
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Old 04-05-2008, 08:49 AM
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GSD,
maybe this graph will help you understand vacuum advance a bit better

(this is not your vac unit graph...so it's for "illustration only" and it shows dist degrees, for crank degrees you would multiple by 2)

right now your unit is adding up to about 10 crank *'s of vacuum advance which would be the "3 turns" line on this chart (5 dist degrees x 2 = 10 crank degrees)

the motor will only get the full additional 10* "when" the motor Hg is 12Hg+....(the flat part of the graph line)

with your combo (and low base timing) when you step on the gas and actually put a load on the motor to move the car the Hg is likely only 5-8Hg....so as the 3 turns graph line shows, there is "NO" vac adv timing added....the motor is operating on only the 10* base (and "maybe" a couple of centrifugal degrees) = No Power with only 10-12* at 2,000

why the timing doesn't keep increasing with more vac adv screw adjust example:

at idle you only have 13Hg...look at the 7 turns line....you would have to have minumum 16Hg (where the flat line starts) at idle for the unit to be able to add 24* at your idle rpms....
with this vac unit and only 13Hg read at idle...the max timing adjusting the screw would/could add with only 13Hg is the 4 turns line = approx 14* added

BUT!!!!!
(the idle Hg reading is only the idle reading!)
cruising at 60 mph the actual Hg is likely as much as 18Hg...the motor is "loafing" and Hg is high.....
"if" the unit was adjusted to 7 turns it would add 24* to the total and that can be a "kaboom"....
leave it at 10-12* added....for now

mount the vac guage in the car so you can actually see what the motor is doing...both for vac adv timing (add or removed based on Hg) and A/F mix quality (less than 12Hg is poor mix)

footnote:
when you add alot of base timing, you do need a "excellent condition" starter system (batt/starter motor/ cables) and likely GROUNDS cables added on a "plastic" vette....so the motor will crank and start when heat soaked hot...

"if" it cranks "alot" slower with alot more base when hot.....very likely that adding ground cables will help alot....simple to test, just connect a battery jumper cable to the batt neg and onto or close to the body of the starter motor.....cranks better with the added ground from the jumper=add a cable batt neg to the starter


ps: 13-14Hg and 900+ rpms idle minumum to get that much Hg with a torker is about right...with a dual plane intake, with the idle about 750, Hg will read about 16Hg with only about 16* base
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Last edited by red65mustang; 04-07-2008 at 10:29 AM.
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Old 04-05-2008, 05:49 PM
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Comments noted, appreciated, and have printed out. I think what I am going to do is try it tomorrow with the accel pump on max just to see if it cures. If not I am going to put the Holley 750 back on. It has had this set-up for over 15 years and runs quite smoothly and strong (I took it off because it needed a rebuild and wanted to try the Edelbrock). I found the Weiand Stealth #8016 and will have that port matched, so If I want to go to the Edelbrock I'll use that manifold and carb.

I don't think I'll change the LT-1 cam in the engine. It's been there since 1972 and is in great shape as is the short block. There seem to be many problems with wear on the new cams being sold and the break-in can be a pain. I have dual springs on the heads and it's too much extra work to take them off and use singles for the break-in period, etc. Current LT-1 cam still pulls at 7,000 so I'm happy. I do not race the car, but occassionally like to beat on it (hey what the heck, it's fun).

The car starts fine, no cranking problems even when hot and it's still the original starter from when I bought the car in '72 !

I'll keep everyone posted with further developments.
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Old 04-06-2008, 08:46 AM
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GCD,
last comment(?):
there are fundamental "rules" for required minumum base timing depending on the actual camshaft duration.......

the oem Chevy timing tune up spec does say 10-12* base is fine with a regular oem stock camshaft....that makes 18-21Hg at only 600 idle rpms with about 190/202 @ .5 worth of timing...= good low end power with only 10-12* needed

I would bet you a beverage of your choice that if you can find the original Chevy oem timing spec for your cam (254/254 @ .5?) it will read: "minumum" 16* base timing required

here's a basic's ignition timing article link that confirms what I'm saying...with very conservative "starting point" base timing recommendations (with a dual plane intake!) versus camshaft duration....(read the "INITIAL TIMING" titled paragraph)

http://www.gnetworks.com/v4files/bar...withimages.pdf

with your carb/intake/heads combo you need alot more than the "typical" base timing to make adaquate Hg to make low rpms TQ power...

with only 10-12* base you are losing about 1/3rd of the HP/TQ that the motor would make with better timing...when just driving normal

there is a EVER SO TRUE saying about motors: "90% of all carb problems are in fact timing problems!!!"

Last edited by red65mustang; 04-07-2008 at 11:19 AM.
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