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Old 05-03-2006, 08:07 PM
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Edelbrock Performer Cam vs. ...

When Edel states their Performer cam RPM range they say it is 'idle-5500'. Would someone be able to tell me what that is? Let's say a 350 or 305 got the performer intake and cam, but otherwise stock. Is idle in the range of 750 or what?

I know that sounds like an amature question, and it is, but there is good reason. The old motor in my truck idled smoothly at 500rpm. It pulled well from there too. This was important and useful for slow going off pavement. If cam choice (or anything else about a motor) directly contributes to that motor idling at 750 rather than 500, my rolling speed at idle just took a huge 50% jump.

CompCams has a bump stick called Xtreme4x4. Their posted RPM range is 600-4600. That's much more useful for my application it seems. The problem is that I know almost nothing about building an engine right now so am trying to simply copy a build others have done numerous times. The primary concern is mileage in this 283. I'm concerned the combination will lose some of the 'magic' by going to the Xtreme4x4 cam. Any thoughts? About idle RPM or Edel vs. CompCams or others?

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Old 05-03-2006, 10:53 PM
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Even though 750 is 50% more than 500, it's still a very small percentage of the whole RPM range. IMO some cam companies are too generous with the rated rpm range of their cams.

These are some RPM ranges based on a cam's duration @ .050". It's for a Ford V8 but you'll get the idea. I think they're more realistic.
http://www.amotion.com/fcm.html#10

I do like Comp Cams products but most I've looked at use a 110 Lobe Separation Angle. If mileage if your biggest priority I'd use something like a 114 LSA. This reduces valve overlap, smoother idle, lower RPM grunt and a wider power range.

For builders with limited experience I highly recommend reading
http://speedomotive.com/Building%20Tips.htm
If you feel there are inconsistencies with what others have done numerous times, this forum is the best place to answer questions.
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Old 05-04-2006, 08:28 AM
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I'd strongly suggest calling up a cam company and talk to their tech line. These guys will ask you all sorts of questions about your vehicle to pick the right cam. On www.fordmuscle.com they had a great article about tech lines from different companies. They posed as average Joes and not letting on they were from fordmsucle. The results were quite interesting. Some companies such as Crane and Comp cam, the tech guys sounded line they were reading from a script and not interested while Isky had absolutley fabulous tech support that was personal and genulinely sounding interested in helping. I've also spoken with Howards Cams in a cam selection and their tech support was great!
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Old 05-04-2006, 09:30 AM
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Tech line for comp cam

I called Comp Cam once and I swear it was an outsourced marketed line. I was talking to someone with a thick East Indian accent....as if I am supposed to believe this guy knows American muscle performance. Although he was very "technical" he was not very helpful. Not to product bash anyone, I still use their cams, but if I find out that my calls are being forwarded to India I will stop using them.
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Old 05-04-2006, 09:49 AM
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so far the choice is easy but don't buy yet...

the performer cam is designed more for a 3400 lb car motor/tranny/rear gears "HP" gain

the mildest 4x4 cam is designed for more torque on a 4,000lb truck at low to med rpms with the normal motor/tranny/ usually lower gears

both can idle at 600, 500 in gear

that's the basic differences.....agree, call the tech guys, summit, jegs, crane, edelbrock
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Old 05-04-2006, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huskinhano
I'd strongly suggest calling up a cam company and talk to their tech line. These guys will ask you all sorts of questions about your vehicle to pick the right cam. On www.fordmuscle.com they had a great article about tech lines from different companies. They posed as average Joes and not letting on they were from fordmsucle. The results were quite interesting. Some companies such as Crane and Comp cam, the tech guys sounded line they were reading from a script and not interested while Isky had absolutley fabulous tech support that was personal and genulinely sounding interested in helping. I've also spoken with Howards Cams in a cam selection and their tech support was great!
Actually, I did call Comp Cams. Unless they are exporting Southerners to India, my call was taken in the US. I did feel that the guy was either giving me the 'pat' answer or the corporate 'line' off his screen rather than actually putting any thought into selection. He had little interest in talking about torque or mileage at all. Maybe he was a guru when it comes to building for HP... but that wasn't what I was looking for. BTW, this in no way maligns their product. From all the testimonials I have heard, they make a really good cam.

Another problem I had was trying to get something even mildly unusual to make sense to this guy. Case in point, Series Land Rovers use an underdrive t-case (1.148:1) for high range. This little point was completely lost on him. After thinking about it, the better approach would have been to just lie and say I had a rear end that was 15% lower than it actually was.

Kirk
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Old 05-04-2006, 09:03 PM
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the 0-5500 rpm is the upper rpm range of the cam and the 600-4600 is the power range or where it will perform the best.
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Old 05-05-2006, 03:34 AM
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Hillman,

you have a Chevy 283 in a Land Rover?

your original question read as: rebuilding a stock 283 in a Chevy truck for tq and mpg!

my bet, slim chance, the motor and cam you have are stock, you have to check and test the motor to be sure.....
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Old 05-05-2006, 04:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red65mustang
Hillman,

you have a Chevy 283 in a Land Rover?

your original question read as: rebuilding a stock 283 in a Chevy truck for tq and mpg!

my bet, slim chance, the motor and cam you have are stock, you have to check and test the motor to be sure.....
Red65, it wasn't my original post so I never said that my 283 was in a Chevy truck. Sorry about the confusion. I only came in 5 pages later. The motor isn't actually in the Land Rover yet. There is a stock '80 350 standing in at the moment which allowed me to do the conversion (uprated transmission, cooling, etc.). The 283 is out of a '65/66 truck from a junk yard nearby. The mechanic that owns the yard knew the person history of th truck because he was the mechanic... and his father was before him. That's not to say I have been inside it, because it's not in the shop yet. Unless someone switched the crank for something with more throw, or rebuilt the original heads with larger valves, there isn't much that would impact my build. New intake, carb, exhaust manifolds, pistons, rods, etc. Being new to rebuilding a V8 leaves me a little behind the curve, so to speak.

After searching through many spec sheets, I think I came up with a cam that might fit the bill. It's a Crane Cam Powermax 2010 (Pt. # 114102). Check it out at
http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?s...02&lvl=2&prt=5

As I've been learning lately this build process is actually the easy part. Knowing and understanding all the theory that goes into selecting the parts and spec is much more difficult. For instance, I thought it was as simple as picking peak torque at highway cruise RPM for best economy... from other discussions that isn't quite true. So many things to learn.

Kirk
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Old 05-05-2006, 05:24 AM
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for mpg, newer trucks and cars do have smaller motors....But.....they now have 4, 5, and 6 speed trannys to compensate for weight

my advise, rebuild the 350, with your tranny you will use less gas pedal on the farm and hwy compared to the 283
4000lb/283=14lb/cu
4000lb/350=11lb/cu

283 has to work 25% harder to move/accelerate the 4,000 lbs

do read the cams selection link in the above post for 351C Fords, to get a better rough target for the cam

(don't follow?....hillman is post #1......Land Rover is Hillman post #6.... nevermind....that's OK, I have a bad case of general brain rot)

Last edited by red65mustang; 05-05-2006 at 05:32 AM.
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Old 05-05-2006, 06:44 AM
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This is the ONE and ONLY time I would recomend a 335 (400 crank in a 305) It gives you the low end torque without needing all the fuel of a 350. If this were me I would go with

335 (cast steel crank cast pistons 400 sized stock rods) perforemer intake, vortec heads, voodoo 256 cam, small tube long headers, and stock HEI with aftermarket coil and module. Cheap, Simple, Effective.
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Old 05-05-2006, 08:02 AM
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hillman, there are lots of factory stock truck 350's that run great, get decent mileage, study those stock cams and carb sizes combo's.....

maybe someone here will tell you which truck yr/#s are the best

Last edited by red65mustang; 05-05-2006 at 08:13 AM.
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Old 05-05-2006, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red65mustang
hillman, there are lots of factory stock truck 350's that run great, get decent mileage, study those stock cams and carb sizes combo's.....

maybe someone here will tell you which truck yr/#s are the best
Red65, that's exactly the type of info I am looking for. Maybe the 283 isn't the best choice. And just for clarity, I am not married to the idea. Though, having a 4.6 so I could stick some Range Rover decals on would have been kind of fun.

I would like some input on the general opinion, what will I get better mileage with, the 283, 350 or 335, etc? Remember that I drove this vehicle stock for a few years with the stock 2.25 litre motor that produced a whopping 67 Hp and 125 ft-lb. There was only a couple times that motor wouldn't get the job done... albeit slowly. As far as I am concerned anything in the V8 category is going to be all that I need, no matter how 'detuned'. That being said, the primary objective is to get the best mileage possible. Unless you were to run a very tired V8 that was poorly tuned you would be hard pressed to do worse that the LR motor that was designed in the '40's. I know this is the Hotrodder's forum but in case anyone is serious about knowing what the vehicle is here goes:

1966 Series IIa Land Rover 88"
Chev V8 (currently 350)
Chev NP435 (with Ford gears)
Custom adaptor to Series t-case (w/'B' suffix gears: 1.148 high, 2.89 low)
3.54 R&P
35" MTR's (34.8" actual)

That's Stage I of the build. There are three stages to get to the final product. This will do for a couple years unless something really drastic happens. The 283 came into play when a friend told me about how well they had done for him. He has built a number of these things for both himself and others with great success. Besides the fact that the manufacture dates match for the motor and the truck, there is the cross-over between the other LR lines WRT engine size so I could use the emblems (which I find novel). It's not something I am stuck on though. If the 350 that is in there will better suit my requirements then I will rebuild it instead.

Thanks again for all the great input and opinions!

Kirk
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Old 05-06-2006, 04:24 AM
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Hillman,
how much intown versus hwy, how many miles per year, what's your budget for the motor ? how much does it weigh?

if it is full time 4x4....10-12mpg(?) no matter what motor
your already killing mpg with those heavy big tires and 3.50 gears

what's wrong with the 350 that's in it?
what are the compression test and or leak down results?
re-ring only can be 5mpg
if it is plum worn out:
complete master 350 4x4 engine rebuild kit with pistons and "ultimate tq" cam $288, approx $600-$800 for machine work, add roughly $600 for new carb/ign/misc=$1800-$2000 typical for a good rebuild

do some simple arithmetic
10,000 miles per year at 15mpg=666gallons x (?) $5 gal=$3333 yr for gas
10,000 miles per year at 18mpg=555gallons x $5 gal=$2777
savings" $ 566
max "possible" "if" you can train your size 12 boot to go light on the pedal

that's 3+ years before you save a dime on gas with you rebuilding the 350 at home, if the 350 is really shot, you will gain back (?) 2+mpg more

to build the 283 for (?) 2 more mpg average and match the torque of the stock 350,= high rise small runner manifold, tri-Y headers, super tuned excellent carb, crane cam, under drive belts, plus more with stock heads= add (?) $1500 to the 283 $1800-2000 rebuild

buy and build "another" motor....straight 6, 4.1L (bored to 4.6 for "badges") long stroke/great torque= add another $500-1000....nothing is bolt in

just want to protest the price of gas period! money no object! go buy one of the new Chevy inline six motors and all required to make it work
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Old 05-06-2006, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red65mustang
Hillman,
how much intown versus hwy, how many miles per year, what's your budget for the motor ? how much does it weigh?
Red65,
First off, the truck is in the neighborhood of 3700-3800 lbs. Fully loaded for a trip it may be more like 4300 lbs, but that is actually very little of the time. When it is done I would drive the LR most of the time so probably 18-20K per year. The type of driving is probably a 50/50 split in terms of city vs. highway. Just include the off road stuff in the city driving because actual miles is virtually nil and I don't tend toward hill climbs and stuff.

The budget for this thing is probably in the typical rebuild range, $2000. You make a good point about how long it will take to return your investment based on mileage. My expectation is that gas prices will not go down. I hope to drive on this motor for a number of years. Put those two together and it makes the most sense to build the most fuel efficient package I can right now. The more it's driven, the more the benefits are reaped.

Quote:
if it is full time 4x4....10-12mpg(?) no matter what motor
your already killing mpg with those heavy big tires and 3.50 gears
This is a part time 4x4 with manual hubs. In theory the front diff/driveshaft should not be turning while in 2wd.

Quote:
what's wrong with the 350 that's in it?
what are the compression test and or leak down results?
re-ring only can be 5mpg
The 350 that's in it is thought to be worn out. It came out of a high mileage truck that smoked badly with low power. Checking the engine wasn't a concern at the time of install as it was only expected to be a stand in. Right after it was put in I had a leave to for a while. It's been 4 months and I will be back very shortly to start it again. While my gut tells me it's done, I'll do a leakdown anyhow to see. I'd like to see what the heads and bores look like anyhow so the heads will come off too.

Quote:
complete master 350 4x4 engine rebuild kit with pistons and "ultimate tq" cam $288,
What does ultimate torque cam imply? Are you talking generically about a cam geared for torque rather than Hp high in the RPM's?

Quote:
to build the 283 for (?) 2 more mpg average and match the torque of the stock 350
The goal is not to match the 350 in Hp or torque though. Even a stock 283 with the lowest ratings made more than twice the HP and torque of the old motor. When it was first decided that the stock 2.25 didn't have enough power I figured 20% more would have been enough. The cost to build a Land Rover engine to this spec was as more than the cost of a doing a V8. Now, that didn't take into account the cost of conversion but there are other factors that account for that. Everyone off road wants better traction and gearing. The stock transmission wasn't up to the task on the gearing front, thus the NP435. The added benefit is that now strength is a mute point.

Quote:
buy and build "another" motor....straight 6, 4.1L (bored to 4.6 for "badges") long stroke/great torque= add another $500-1000....nothing is bolt in
Between the motor mounts already being done, there not being length for the 6, and the fact that it has to bolt up to the existing NP435 my options now are limited to GM V8's. Before deciding on the V8, I did investigate the 250/292 option. A guy I know has done that very thing. The difference is that he has a wheelbase of 109" on his Land Rover whereas mine is only 88". If mine had the long wheelbase I might have gone that route. I should also note that one of the influencing points in the V8's favour is the shear number of them. They are comparatively cheap to rebuild, and if anything goes wrong not only are the parts/ancillaries cheap but they can darned near be found at any corner store.

Quote:
just want to protest the price of gas period! money no object! go buy one of the new Chevy inline six motors and all required to make it work
For the above reasons that's not an option. Besides that, this is a truck that goes offroad. Too much in the way of computers and wiring that I don't understand or cannot fix on the trail is generally a bad thing. The 'AAA arguement' isn't viable when they can't get to you!

Kirk
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