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Old 07-14-2011, 04:45 PM
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Edelbrock Victor Jr intake street manners

Just wanted to share some initial first impressions of the motor I've built... 383 SBC, big solid cam, Victor Jr intake and Dart Pro-1 215cc heads. The engine is now in the car and I took it out for its maiden shake-down run yesterday evening. I only drove it for a handful of miles just to make sure everything was functioning as it should... oil pressure behaving itself, no water/fuel/oil leaks, etc, etc.

Lots of folks on here (and elsewhere) told me I'd have crap street manners with a Victor Jr intake and it would be a dog to drive on the street. Lots of folks also said 215cc heads would be 'too big' for a street-driven 383. Well, my first impressions were how WELL-mannered the car is... it idles at 500rpm (just), but I've got it set to about 950. It lugs from very low down without complaining and it seems happy cruising in 5th (manual trans) at 1,500rpm. I'd say that's pretty darn good street manners. When I nail it, it just takes off. Torque on the dyno was very flat with 400lbft from under 2,000rpm and just shy of 500HP at the top end. Interestingly, the bone stock Holley carb was jetted perfectly right out the box and produced more power than a tricked-out Quick Fuel (based on the Holley HP series). We also tried a 950cfm carb that was laying around and didn't get anymore power up top.

At some point, I wouldn't mind trying my old Performer RPM intake on it just to see if I can tell a difference as there wasn't time to swap it out on the dyno with all the other little things that end-up taking time when dyno'ing a fresh motor. My engine builder said I'd be wasting my time with the Performer RPM as he knew the combo I have with the Victor Jr 'just plain works'. I must admit, it's hard to imagine the Performer RPM would improve on what I have now.

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Old 07-14-2011, 05:02 PM
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The Performer RPM makes more mid range torque then the vic JR.
More power in the rpm area you usually drive in, on the street.

@3000 rpm it makes a good 10-15Ft/lbs more than the vic JR.

The Vic Jr. has a big top end above 5500 compared. But you have to gear for it to use it.

Drive 'er around for a month or two and then switch. You'll especialy notice the difference in"torque" while cruising and getting into the throttle from cruise.

Yes they both seem to "drive well".

"torque" requires good tire traction to make use of it.
Get some tires that actually bite and:

You'll see for yourself.
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Old 07-14-2011, 09:39 PM
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Just went and searched back for your dyno numbers post.

The numbers are dead smack right where they should be for that combo.

Good stuff.
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Old 07-14-2011, 10:17 PM
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215cc's should be very streetable on a 383. Hell I have a carbed 6.0 LS engine with 260cc intake runners and its streetable even with only 364 cubes.
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Old 07-15-2011, 03:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
Just went and searched back for your dyno numbers post.

The numbers are dead smack right where they should be for that combo.

Good stuff.
My engine builder (well, he specced the combo and took care of the bottom end, I did all the top end assembly and blue-printing) had a recent dyno sheet for another motor using the same combo that gave 526hp. I was a bit disappointed not to break the magic 500hp, but the heads I'm using could definitely do with being port-matched... there's quite a bit of material that could be removed to match the ports with the Victor Jr intake. He reckoned port-matching the heads to the intake would get me very close to the 526hp sheet he had from the other motor. At the stage, I didn't want to pull the heads again and start grinding them, so maybe something for the future if the heads ever need to come off. Also, the other motor was using a CNC'd Victor Jr (mine has been v.lightly CNC'd at the edges of the ports). Not sure that would account for more than a couple of hp though.
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Old 07-19-2011, 04:49 PM
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Just to follow-up on this now that I've had chance to take the car on a few more drives...

The car will take WOT in 1st without lighting the rears up... it scrabbles for traction, but still sticks it down. Hard change into 2nd again sees the rears scrabble a bit, but then it just sticks and goes. Car only weighs 2,400lbs with a 3.54:1 rear, so I'm surprised there aren't more traction issues.

With the gearing I've got, I must admit it's hard to get the motor spinning anymore than around 5,000rpm on the street... you're just going too fast already. If I put the Performer RPM intake on, do you think it would make a significant difference? It would be kinda nice to light-up the rears in 1st and 2nd from a roll, which I can't do right now.
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Old 07-20-2011, 02:07 AM
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Yes......................... (the short answer)


What car is this? What tires? What trans?




The Performer RPM will always maker more power from the get go to 5000rpm
than the vic JR.

Either your tires are very good or the timing and carb may need work yet.

Many cars ( but not all) I;ve done want a bit more main jet than what they came off the dyno with.

70-80 may need to go to 73-84 on the street.

Timing needs to be agressive with that cam. auto trans: can lock it out.
The cam you got does not get busy till 3000+rpm. Especially with that manifold. The RPM intake makes way more torque right there.
(thats what you feel when you rug it.)

You should be shifting @ 6500 ish with the vic JR. It wants to rev.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 07-20-2011 at 02:18 AM.
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Old 07-20-2011, 02:55 AM
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Car is an AC Cobra replica (please no flaming over the non-Ford motor... using an SBC is common practice over here). I always hesitate to mention the car cuz I know some guys over that side of the pond can get quite 'passionate' about using anything other than a Ford motor.

Anyway... trans is a Tremec TKO500 and tyres are Toyo Proxes (think width is 255, but will have to check).

Here's something I was thinking about on the train on the way into work this morning... I'm using a stock HEI distributor with stock advance springs. I've replaced the coil and module for aftermarket, but the advance mech is all stock. Haven't yet checked at what RPM timing is all-in by, but it sounded quite high when I was checking the timing with the timing light under the hood. So, I suspect I could go with lighter springs, which might liven things up a bit?

Carb fuelling was perfect on the dyno with the stock jets. Would there really be any benefit from messing with them?
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Old 07-20-2011, 03:15 AM
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You need to do more than just change the advance springs.
The stock mechanical advance curve is not right for that motor.
The stock vacuum advance needs tuning also.


Jetting: The motor don;t care what you want. It wants what it wants.
Yes the on road jetting may be different than the dyno.
Drag testing will tell. A wide band AFR gauge can help.
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Old 07-20-2011, 03:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
You need to do more than just change the advance springs.
The stock mechanical advance curve is not right for that motor.
The stock vacuum advance needs tuning also.


Jetting: The motor don;t care what you want. It wants what it wants.
Yes the on road jetting may be different than the dyno.
Drag testing will tell. A wide band AFR gauge can help.
Right, the curve may not be right which is why I'm gonna try different advance springs. Weights should be OK though? If not, I've got some weights in a Moroso advance kit I have laying around somewhere.

Can you explain how the jetting could be different on the road compared to on a dyno? I thought one of the major benefits of using an engine dyno was so jetting, etc could be set in a controlled environment and tuned perfectly.
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Old 07-20-2011, 05:18 AM
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I guess you never have bothered to read my many posts on ignition advance. Or you just don;t get it.

You need way more initial base timing than the stock curve will allow.

Shorten/limit the curve from 20 deg to around 12.

This will allow the initial to be set around 24deg at idle and max at 34-36deg at max advance.
The idle will be much cleaner and more stable. The throttle response will be much better. A lot more low end grunt.
Allows the motor to idle with the carbs throttle blades in correct orientation with the idle transfer slots.

You need to first determine what the motor really wants for correct idle timing. First remove the carb and reset the pri and sec throttles opeing at idle so that about .020-.030" of the transfer slot is exposed. Reinstall the carb. Start it up and reset the timing with no vacuum advance. Let it warm up and give it all the idle timing it requires at say 750rpm. Without increasing the throttles adjustment from the initial set up you just did on the carb. (you can readjust the idle mix screws once the motor has warmed up cmpletely.) It will want around 20 to 24deg base timing.
Make sure the motor is actually idling on the start base of the timing curve.
(slow the motor down and read the timing with a light.)

12 to 14 deg base timing at idle "stock" is not enough If it wants 20deg it wants 20deg at idle.

Low idle base timing will require excessive thottle opening at idle resulting in poor off idle throttle response and poor plug life.

Get the carbs throttles opening position re set correctly and then give it the base initial timing it requires to idle at the desired idle speed.

reset the carb idle speed to 750-800 rpm. The curve should no start rising until about 1100rpm. Then rise smoothly to max at 34-36deg around 3000 rpm.

You must modify the mechanical advance stop limit to get the right curve.

Vacuum advance is a separate issue. Get the mechanical right first.

The primary purpose of vacuum advance is to add timing while driving at a fair speed at light engine load. (high manifold vacuum @ part throttle) Like on the hiway.


If you happen to get a little vacuum advance at idle thats fine but not all in at idle.

You want about and additional 10-12deg of added vac advacne at high vacuum part throttle cruise. The max amount added at high vacuum should be limited to around 15deg max. drive testing will be required to get it just right. (rate in and out)

20-24 base initial at idle.... 34-36 at max mechanial +10-12 at steady cruise with high manfold vacuum cruise, max 15deg vac adv.


Jetting. The motor is no longer on a dyno. Its in your car. Operating Conditions are different now.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 07-20-2011 at 05:43 AM.
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Old 07-20-2011, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
I guess you never have bothered to read my many posts on ignition advance. Or you just don;t get it.
I can do without the prima donna attitude.

Anyone else care to comment? Thanks for the help guys.
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Old 07-20-2011, 05:57 AM
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Warning: this is a aggressive tune up. Unlike a auto trans car with a high stall converter, it is possible to lug a motor down low rpm at WOT with a manual tranmission..... If you insist on lugging the high perf motor down low rpm , It may spark knock with this much base initial timing. (and or crap gas in the tank.)
It won;t if you drive the car correctly. A high perf motor with a big cam does not like low low rpm at WOT throttle high load. Do not lug the motor down. Its not a diesel motor.

Drive testing and fine tuning is recomended.
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Old 07-20-2011, 03:12 PM
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Just wanted to update this with today's activities...

Checked my initial timing and it was 14* BTDC. I swapped the stock (at least, I assume they're stock... used distributor) advance springs for the lightest springs in my Moroso HEI curve kit. I also bumped my initial timing to 16* BTDC, so I now have 16* initial and 36* all-in by 2,500rpm. Car feels a bit better, but difficult to tell. Still sticks from a roll, but I tried a soft launch in 1st and it spun all the way through 1st and most of the way through 2nd, but the road surface wasn't great either... must try and fine some nice smooth black-top to try on. I'm still using vac. advance plugged into ported vacuum on the carb. I also have to say I found my secondaries were only opening maybe half-way as I had a minor disaster with the throttle cable and had to remount it a little further up the throttle arm, which now means the pedal hits the floor before the cable has fully opened the secondaries. This is fixable... I just need to take another look at it and remount the cable at the lowest position on the throttle arm.

Next step is I want to try F'BIRD's suggestion of setting my initial timing at 24* (might try 20* or 22* to begin with). Trouble is, I can't do that without getting tack welds in the slots on my distributor advance base plate to limit centrifugal advance, so that will have to wait a while as I don't own a welder.

If I set my initial in the 20-24* neighbourhood, can I still use ported vacuum advance, or would that be too much timing for the motor, even when cruising?

Also, I noticed the weights in my disributor are stamped '09' and are larger than the weights that came with the Moroso recurve kit. What's difference would it make fitting the smaller weights and is it something I should do?

Thanks.
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Old 07-20-2011, 03:25 PM
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F'bird is right about the timing, moving from 14 initial to 24 initial will make a HUGE difference in low RPM street manners. This should all have been taken care of when you had it dyno tuned though- I suspect that your "tune" is probably faulty elsewhere if it is missing something as basic ad initial timing.
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