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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 09-29-2011, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10scnd70
We KNOW what it does. That's the problem with alot of you with "book smarts". You don't know a damn thing if you actually put you in front of the parts! I seen for myself what the results are. I work and test in the real world...not in a library. Go read some more books and leave the mechanical stuff for those who work with it.

Frank
Professionally licensed "Engineer/Scientist". I've been blowing the competition's doors off for over 50 years. Do a search in here fon my handle and read the crap I write.

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Old 09-29-2011, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by oldbogie
Professionally licensed "Engineer/Scientist". I've been blowing the competition's doors off for over 50 years. Do a search in here fon my handle and read the crap I write.

Bogie
Does any of it have to do with transmission coolers? If not, none of it is applicable. Get back to us after you install some temp guages on a cooler.

Frank
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 09-29-2011, 07:02 PM
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Frank,

There has to be more to the story.

As an Engineer who has made a living for 30 years designing presure vessels, some of which are industrial heat exchangers, and as a 50+ year old car guy I am more than a bit skeptical about your comments regarding tube style exchangers.

What was the temperature differential, inlet vs. outlet, and did you have the "cooler" in a location where it was picking up heat from exhaust, the radiator, or some other heat source?

Coolers can also be used as heaters, just depends on if the stuff "in" the exchanger tubes is hotter or cooler than the stuff "outside" of the exchanger tubes.

John

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Old 09-29-2011, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10scnd70
There seems to be quite a bit of confusion surrounding transmission cooler type, where to mount them, and how to mount them. One of the most important things to remember is, there are 2 very different types of coolers. One is a "tube and fin" design and the other is a "stacked plate" design. The "tube and fin" designs are completely worthless, and research has shown that they can actually heat the fluid up! How is that possible? We first proved this around 15 years ago. We had a Grand National that kept blowing fluid out the vent because of over heating. We tried a "tube and fin" cooler, but it didn't help. Next, we tried 2 coolers, in series. Still didn't help. We noticed that the fluis coming out of the coolers was still extremely hot, so we put temp guages on the in and the out and found fluid hotter coming out! Think about fluid dynamics. Anytime you ask fluid to change directions 180 degrees, it picks up pressure. Run a garden hose in a bucket and you'll notice what comes back at you has more pressure. Pressure generates heat. If you've got an air compressor, you'll notice that if you hold an air chuck to your hand it will start to get hot the longer you spray air on it. So, a "tune and fin" cooler is exactly what the name implies...It's a tube that is bent at 180 degree bends on each end and ran through a series of fins. The larger the cooler, the more bends, thus more heat generated.
Remember that Grand National? We took both large "tube and fin" coolers off and installed a single, much smaller "stacked plate" cooler and it fixed it! The "stacked plate" design resembles a small radiator, and is much more efficient, albeit a little more expensive.
External coolers should be ran in series whenever possible. It's best to run through the radiator first, then through an external cooler, and then back to the transmission. Water is a much better cooling medium than air. This is why all modern day engines are liquid cooled.
Where to mount the cooler is another often asked question. I hear all the time, "I want to mount it under my air dam so it'll get plenty of air going down the road"...That's all well and good, but what happens when you're at a stop light and the converter is generating it's most heat? The best place for a cooler is directly in front of the radiator, as close as you can get it. This way it uses your fan to pull air through the radiator, while the vehicle is sitting still. The other option is remote mounted with it's own dedicated fan. My cooler preferance is the Tru-Cool 4490. I use these on everything, including street cars with 4500 stall converters, and they work great.

Frank
This "test" is the poster child for the "scientific method" of testing.

IMO, a properly designed multi-pass tube and fin ATF cooler will not generate and significant heat from the friction of the fluid through the cooler under anything approaching normal conditions. And unless the ambient temp is greater than the ATF temp that is passing through the cooler, there will be no significant rise in ATF temp.

BTW, at idle a torque converter is not "generating it's most heat". It will be generating the most heat at its maximum stall RPM.
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Old 09-29-2011, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by cobalt327
BTW, at idle a torque converter is not "generating it's most heat". It will be generating the most heat at its maximum stall RPM.
You are correct about this, but I didn't mention this, as I was referring to every day driving. A converter does generate more heat while sitting still and stalling than it does going down the road... Again, I don't care how many "engineers" comment on this. I'm not talkin about theory. I proved it, on a vehicle. Smaller stacked plate cooler in the SAME location fixed the overheating problem...

Frank
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 09-29-2011, 09:45 PM
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Not here to start a pissing match, but actually, you "proved" nothing. What you DID do, is presented a hypothesis or possibly more correctly, a conjecture.

To prove a hypothesis, use the scientific method as presented above. I won't get into the whole "you can't prove a hypothesis is correct, you can only prove if it's false" ball of wax. But you surely muct understand that one case does not represent a fact, only a conjecture, or hypothesis.
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Old 09-29-2011, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by cobalt327
Not here to start a pissing match, but actually, you "proved" nothing. What you DID do, is presented a hypothesis or possibly more correctly, a conjecture.

To prove a hypothesis, use the scientific method as presented above. I won't get into the whole "you can't prove a hypothesis is correct, you can only prove if it's false" ball of wax. But you surely muct understand that one case does not represent a fact, only a conjecture, or hypothesis.
You are correct, but the end result of that test dictated that I never use a junk "tube and fin" cooler again, and that hypothesis has worked out marvelously. So, what is a good number of how many transmissions we have to let a "tube and fin" cooler burn up before we call them junk? Because in the past 15 years I've had many customers bring me vehicles with trans temp guages in the car, and "tube and fin" coolers. The question they all ask is, why is my trans temp above 230? We swap the coolers to a "stacked plate" cooler and the over heating goes away... How many times do you have to PROVE the same thing?

Frank
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 09-29-2011, 10:07 PM
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I have no problem w/the idea that a stacked plate cooler might be somewhat more efficient than a tube/fin arrangement. This will also depend on the capacity of the coolers being compared. It wouldn't surprise me, for example, to find that a t/f cooler would need to be a somewhat larger physical size than a stacked plate cooler to radiate the same amount of heat to the surrounding air, all else being equal.

But what you said initially was the ATF temp will be significantly higher coming out of the t/f cooler than going into the t/f cooler- enough to cause damage. And this is what is being questioned.

You need not "burn up" anything to test your hypothesis, BTW.
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Old 09-29-2011, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by cobalt327
I have no problem w/the idea that a stacked plate cooler might be somewhat more efficient than a tube/fin arrangement. This will also depend on the capacity of the coolers being compared. It wouldn't surprise me, for example, to find that a t/f cooler would need to be a somewhat larger physical size than a stacked plate cooler to radiate the same amount of heat to the surrounding air, all else being equal.

But what you said initially was the ATF temp will be significantly higher coming out of the t/f cooler than going into the t/f cooler- enough to cause damage. And this is what is being questioned.

You need not "burn up" anything to test your hypothesis, BTW.
I didn't say significantly higher, but even if it's a few degrees higher, it shows that the cooler(s) weren't doing their job...

Frank
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 09-29-2011, 10:49 PM
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Sorry OP. I just don't buy that the tube type of transmission cooler is so inefficient and such a bottleneck, that 170-200+ degree fluid, after it has passed through a core being cooled by 70 degree ambient air, is going to come out HOTTER than when it went in. Either your measurement tools are flawed, or your testing method is. Do you have any metal on metal contact between the radiator and transmission cooler?

Try a bench test outside the vehicle using an electric pump, some heated water, and some big fans.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 09-30-2011, 06:13 AM
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I can not comment on the results of the experiment of the OP here since I was not there.

A fellow trans business owner at the time did a similar test to see which trans cooler of the tube design cooled better. Most coolers at the time were the tube - fin design.

Billy Kelli had gauges on each side of the cooler installed on his ElCamino. He never reported to me that the oil was hotter on the exit side of these coolers than the side going in.

This was back in 1981. I remember that year well since a 19 yr old kid that worked as an R&R / tear down person at my shop was killed in a horrific single vehicle crash
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Old 09-30-2011, 09:03 AM
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Regardless of any "tests", the proof is in the sump temperature of the ATF as seen by a gauge sender mounted in the sump. This takes away any inaccuracies that may occur when trying to measure temps into and out of a cooler. Just using two different temperature transducers can cause a difference that may not exist- and if the difference in temp is small, this is even more important. The senders or transducers would need to have had their positions swapped in order to rule this out. I'm guessing that wasn't done in the testing the OP did. But either way I'll say it again- w/o proper testing procedures, these claims are supposition- not fact.

Add to that the fact that the OEM routinely added transmission coolers of the tube and fin type to their vehicles (I have two in the drive right now that have them from the factory), says that these coolers do more than heat the ATF. Ever see the OEM add something under the hood that wasn't doing a job of some sort? The bean counters would have axed the coolers in a NY minute if they didn't work. Hell, the bean counters will hack off a single washer, let alone something as complex to install and expensive as a cooler w/all the lines, fittings, etc.

I think that covers my position, so I believe I'm done.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 09-30-2011, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
I think that covers my position, so I believe I'm done.
Except to say once again that stating my position is not to start a feud. It is my opinion and that's all. FWIW, I agree w/a lot more of the original thread than I disagreed with.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 09-30-2011, 06:44 PM
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I bet the coolers were installed backwards so they were heating instead of cooling. This is the only logical explanation. LOL
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Old 09-30-2011, 11:29 PM
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Pressure does not generate heat. Friction generates heat. Flow through a conduit cannot pick up pressure, it loses pressure to due to friction. If you have a device like a tranny cooler that picks up measurable temperature it must have lost a huge amount of pressure to friction losses. Simple fix; run bigger tubes.

Fin and tube heat exchangers run the world and are extremely effective. Your air conditioner, furnace, the heater in your car, and on and on are fin and tube heat exchangers. The problem you are having with an exchanger not cooling is 99.9999% of the time an air flow problem. If temperature through a fin/tube exchanger is increasing the only way that can happen (ruling out 100% pressure loss to friction which at the low pressures run in a tranny would generate a very small temperture rise) is the air blowing across the fins is hotter than the fluid in the tubes. Other than that, the only other possible outcome is the same temperature coming out that went in. The laws of physics are not suspended for hot rods. Luckily the book learnin' always applies!
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