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Old 01-23-2013, 10:06 PM
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EFI standalone suggestions

Hey everybody!

well ive decided to put fuel injection on my street/trip truck and need a little help deciding what to buy. This summer it will be on a small block N/A making approx 580 hp. I would also like to use the same computer on my turbo small block 383 that will be installed this fall. I have an edelbrock EFI intake with injectors and fuel rails so that can cut down on costs. The rest of the fuel system is already upgraded for EFI duty. I like the idea of the self tuning efi for the N.A engine. I have a laptop and resources to tune the boosted engine. Any suggestions are appreciated.

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Old 01-23-2013, 11:36 PM
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Megasquirt II or III. I think III would be the best.


www.diyautotune.com


In terms of price, I don't think you can find anything cheaper. In terms tuneability, MAP tables, fuel tables, timing tables are all tuneable by you. The tech support is fast and bear in mind, that the tech support guys are the guys that designed and built the software and hardware.

Check out the site. FYI, they will answer all questions you might have prior to you purchasing!

I recommend the preassembled units - quicker.

Good luck.
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:47 PM
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Thats pretty much what i was thinking. I know some guys suggest the MS 1, but whats the big difference between them?
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:16 AM
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Check the website or send them a message and tell them (Scott) what you are doing and he will give you the best recommendation.

In terms of MSI, it is fuel only control. If you are running a turbo or blower then a MSII or III is a necessity for the timing control.

First off, I'm not a turbo guy, but I have several friends that are that use MSII's. The largest problem of wrecking your build is lack of timing control under boost. The MSII lets you adjust your timing and fuel delivery based on MAP reading (boost reading). IT IS VERY SAFE for your build in terms of limiting detonation which can be catastrophic at 10+ boost levels. Couple the timing and fuel control with AFR datalogging info and now you can gradually increase/change your fuel and timing control SAFELY. I assume you don't want to be the monthly winner for 'blown up part of the month' in Car Craft.

Lastly, for a street/strip build, you will be amazed at what you can do with the tuning for mileage at low boost levels when cruising. I know of a guy with a turbo 4200 straight 6 out of Trailblazer in a mid 50's pickup that makes over 600HP and gets 35 mpg with 4L80E trans that is controlled by a MSIII.

Also, this is pretty neat, you can download an app for for your smart phone to use as a monitor for all of your gauge readings with the TunerStudio software. I believe that if you seen this system in use in person, then it is a no brainer.

There is a ton of info on the diyautotune website. Spend 6-10 hours reading and/or send them a message.

Also the MSII or MSIII can handle both high and low impedence injectors where the MSI cannot.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:23 AM
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Thanks for that info. Im defiantly leaning towards MS 2 or 3. I just have to read up on what is required distributor wise to control timing. If i have to run a crank sensor or not.
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Old 01-24-2013, 05:54 AM
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the problem with the m/sIII is price.. it's like 870.oo just for the ecu..
yes it's powerfull. but it be nice if they had a step inbetween the msII and the over the top m/s III
msII is 240.oo in kit form and add a c-note for it already built..
350 is a far cry from the almost 900.oo for the MSIII
the m/s II doesn't ise ubs port. it used a serial port that most laptops haven't had for 8 years.. and the serial to ubs adapters are tempermental.. from what I've heard...
it be nice if they'd upgrade the m/sII to a ubs port and ditch the serial

I'm on the sideline ,here as the holley hp kit is 1800.oo +injectors and fuel pump.. and by the time you add up the MSIII and all the parts your are in the same ballpark ,unless you run all junkyard parts...not likely when one just dropped almost a grand on a ecu..
the MSII ya.. at 350.oo ish.. thats junkyard heaven..

I'll mostlikely even up with a M/s II as by the time I outgrow it.. the msIII will be outdated...

the holley mpi kit is so tempting for a newbe to efi as it has a self learn to get you up and running and so close.. then twek with a laptop after you get a handle of it...

I'd guess if more saw the MsII/III in action . first hand it be much eazier. to make the jump...

and frankly with laptops in the 300up range the efi ecu's prices are out of line for what they do...
I'd gladly pay 700 for the msIII if it was made here with parts sourced here...
but sadly like everything else electronic thats not the case...
the R&D comes from the users mostly.. the msIII came from the users needs and r&d allong with the makers... r&d isn't cheap.. I know.. but 2000.oo+ is hard to take for a system that you piece together and trouble shoot,tune/etc
it be nice if DIY ayto tune would make a spreadsheet page with msI/MSII/MSIII and a list of what it do/handle and a yes/no/upgrade needed.. so you can see the differences and IF YOU really NEED the top line III...

Last edited by gearheadslife; 01-24-2013 at 06:11 AM.
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Old 01-24-2013, 08:44 AM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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There is a lot of wrong information on this thread so far.

1) MS1 can control timing

2) buy a used system and have it checked over, I picked up a few MS1 units, all of them less than $125 shipped.

3) for 95% of street driven vehicles MS1 is more than sufficent

4) you do NOT need a crank sensor for any of the units. You can use one though and change from a distributor to some sort of distributor-less ignition, you can use a cam sensor too.

5) MS1 can handle low impedance injectors



With all of that being said all of them MS units are very customizable and you can get one to match what you need, additionally there are a LOT of additional "add ons" that separate people are developing which you can add later if you want. The one thing I will recommend is that you stay away from the "green boards" there are a lot of updates on the blue boards and they are also easier to adapt for better processors should you want to upgrade to MS2 or MS3 down the road.

Oh, and when tuning you're going to need to print the manual and take it one small step at a time. DO NOT get in a rush. after the first time through its as easy as pie but the first time is a royal pain in the *** to learn all the new controls and functions.
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Old 01-24-2013, 08:48 AM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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oh, and to "self tune" you'll need to buy Tuner Studios software, I think its $30. It has an auto tune feature for your fuel maps though you still need to set in your desired AF ratio and set the idle air control, accel enrichment, warm up enrichment, etc.

I know at this stage it seems complicated and my first swap was, but once you get over the learning hump its super easy.

You can also run dual fuels if you want to run an additional system for race gas for when you turn up the wick.
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Old 01-24-2013, 09:01 AM
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like I said .if I saw it in action.. and the tuning being done. it may make it easier to move to efi
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:21 AM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Well I don't know what to tell you, I guess if you want it all done for you go find a local tuner that will install it and tune it. Expect to pay close to a grand for installation and tuning but you either do it yourself or pay someone else to.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:30 AM
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I just came from the diyautotune site and saw the msiii fully assembled for around 550.00 not sure where the 840 came from. Frankly theres so many choices that I'm still dizzy. If you really want to go this direction I think you should call these folks and let them guide you through it. On the other hand you can start with a used ms1 and upgrade it as far as you need to. It's really a pretty thing they've got going here.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
Well I don't know what to tell you, I guess if you want it all done for you go find a local tuner that will install it and tune it. Expect to pay close to a grand for installation and tuning but you either do it yourself or pay someone else to.

think you are missing the point, sometimes see'n the adjustments done "live" helps more than reading the mega manual 10x..

if reading alone was enough. autoshop classes would not have,nor need shop time, as everyone would "get it" from the written word alone..
not how it works..
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Old 01-24-2013, 04:03 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gearheadslife View Post
think you are missing the point, sometimes see'n the adjustments done "live" helps more than reading the mega manual 10x..

if reading alone was enough. autoshop classes would not have,nor need shop time, as everyone would "get it" from the written word alone..
not how it works..
Everyone does learn differently but you're going to be hard pressed to find a class on it. there are plenty of forums for it though and you may be able to ask around at some local auto clubs about local people using it. Also there are a LOT of youtube videos on it, where you can watch a video- not quite hands on but its quick and free- something autoshop classes never were.
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Old 01-24-2013, 06:39 PM
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ap72 & gearheadsforlife,

Sorry about the the inaccuracy I put in about the timing control abilities of the MS1, but ... I made a mistake. It will control the timing.

Regarding the price, I bought an assembled MSII with 3.57 PCB, assembled relay board, GM HEI conversion kit and cable for less than $650 shipped; junkyard TPI setup for $175; LC1 wideband $125, stock Corvette in tank fuel pump $55;injectors serviced for $100. I had to buy miscellaneous gaskets and lines, fuses and some wire for less than $100.

I chose the assembled units because after reading the MegaManual and talking to a friend that has built 3 units (and seeing two of them in action with turbo cars), I determined that the assembled unit was for me for the extra money. A 'man has to know his limitations' and I knew I would be in for a headache if I tried to assemble a PCB. And the assembled unit for a multiport setup with either turbo or nitrous control was as close to plug and play as I could find. I chose against the MSI for two main reasons, 12x12 tables vs the MSI 8x8 tables which allows for alot more control/tuning capability, and the room to grow with the MSII or MSIII vs MSI.

I recommended the MSII or MSIII to the original poster because of what he said he was building - turbo engine, and no assembly of the PCB required.

In terms of the serial port, a USB to serial port adapter is cheap - less than $30. I asked the same question of why not a USB port? I was told, by DIYAutoTune that is was because of the toughness of the serial port and/or the delicateness of a USB port. If it had a USB port and the port broke then the PCB would have to replaced or repaired....that is what I was told and it makes sense.

Again, SORRY for any misleading info - it was not my intention and I'll repeat that I AM NOT an expert on this system or any other - I was just offering my opinion and advice based on my experience - for what it's worth.
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Old 01-24-2013, 07:32 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 64nailhead View Post
ap72 & gearheadsforlife,

Sorry about the the inaccuracy I put in about the timing control abilities of the MS1, but ... I made a mistake. It will control the timing.

Regarding the price, I bought an assembled MSII with 3.57 PCB, assembled relay board, GM HEI conversion kit and cable for less than $650 shipped; junkyard TPI setup for $175; LC1 wideband $125, stock Corvette in tank fuel pump $55;injectors serviced for $100. I had to buy miscellaneous gaskets and lines, fuses and some wire for less than $100.

I chose the assembled units because after reading the MegaManual and talking to a friend that has built 3 units (and seeing two of them in action with turbo cars), I determined that the assembled unit was for me for the extra money. A 'man has to know his limitations' and I knew I would be in for a headache if I tried to assemble a PCB. And the assembled unit for a multiport setup with either turbo or nitrous control was as close to plug and play as I could find. I chose against the MSI for two main reasons, 12x12 tables vs the MSI 8x8 tables which allows for alot more control/tuning capability, and the room to grow with the MSII or MSIII vs MSI.

I recommended the MSII or MSIII to the original poster because of what he said he was building - turbo engine, and no assembly of the PCB required.

In terms of the serial port, a USB to serial port adapter is cheap - less than $30. I asked the same question of why not a USB port? I was told, by DIYAutoTune that is was because of the toughness of the serial port and/or the delicateness of a USB port. If it had a USB port and the port broke then the PCB would have to replaced or repaired....that is what I was told and it makes sense.

Again, SORRY for any misleading info - it was not my intention and I'll repeat that I AM NOT an expert on this system or any other - I was just offering my opinion and advice based on my experience - for what it's worth.
the MS1 unit can use 12X12 tables, and dual tables that can be switched on the fly at a certain rpm or map pressure. Essentially giving you a 12X24 table (what I'm currently running). Also, MS1 leaves plenty of room to grow, the real limiting factor is the PCB, but even then the 2.2 (green board) can be modified and upgraded.

I know you don't mean any harm but your information is incorrect.
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