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Old 09-15-2006, 09:44 PM
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Eliminate "R" terminal on starter?

Can you eliminate the "R" terminal wiring hook up on the starter solenoid if you have a points type distributor (with Pertronix electronic module) with a ballast resister in the circuit? And not have problems. (Just got a new mini starter that does not have the "R" terminal.)

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Old 09-16-2006, 12:38 AM
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Doc here,

To answer this, and your last posting, You can..and MIGHT even get away with it..but most likely you'll end up with dead battery's on cold winter days trying to start the car , since the points ignition will not have a secondary source of power during cranking cycles..

This LOWERS the already LOW voltage at the coil..(ballast resistor will standard drop it to 6 to 9 volts..) With the load of cranking the coil voltage may go as low as 3 volts..Not acceptable..

Your options here are, get the Diode kit:
"R" side......"S" side...

"S"0---->|------o BALLAST 0-----0 COIL +

solenoid~diode~~ballast resistor~coil plus



OR your other option is go a relay :



Wire it as follows:
  • 85 to hard ground
  • 86 to the "S" terminal on the solenoid
  • 30 to the ballast resistor line or "R" terminal now.
  • 87 to the battery direct with a proper fuse link.
  • 87a will not be used.


OR you could use a FORD type solenoid , wire it this way:


  • Big bolt (either side) to the battery via proper fuse link.
  • big bolt opposite side, to the ballast resistor or "R" terminal now.
  • "S" terminal from the starter to FORD solenoid .
  • you could use the "S" and "R" terminals on the FORD solenoid..but the big bolts are much better contacts.

Doc
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Old 09-16-2006, 11:18 AM
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Recap directions

It sounds like the easiest way to wire this would be to use the ford solenoid switch, but you left off one wire. To make sure I understand:

1. Connect cable from battery to the right side of ford solenoid.(big bolt)?

2. Connect existing R terminal wire in the car to the left side of ford solenoid (big bolt)?

3. Connect S terminal on starter to the S terminal on the ford solenoid?

4. You have got to have a battery cable connected to the starter itself. Where does the other end of that cable connect to?

Thanks for the information Are the first 3 connections correct?
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Old 09-16-2006, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotRodMan
It sounds like the easiest way to wire this would be to use the ford solenoid switch, but you left off one wire. To make sure I understand:

1. Connect cable from battery to the right side of ford solenoid.(big bolt)?

2. Connect existing R terminal wire in the car to the left side of ford solenoid (big bolt)?

3. Connect S terminal on starter to the S terminal on the ford solenoid?

4. You have got to have a battery cable connected to the starter itself. Where does the other end of that cable connect to?

Thanks for the information Are the first 3 connections correct?
Doc here,

You DO NOT remove the Battery cable from the solenoid at all, in fact you remove NO wire from the starter, but add 1 to it..the "S" terminal extra to energize the FORD solenoid.
  • 10 gauge wire to the battery from the FORD solenoid Big Bolt.(left)
  • The current "R" wire to the other end big Bolt. (Right)
  • The "S" wire from the FORD solenoid to parallel to the "S" wire on the starter now..
  • "R" terminal on the FORD solenoid need not be used.
  • The 4 gauge battery terminal on the starter is left UNDISTURBED.
  • The "S" wire on the Starter is left where it is BUT a Second is added to energize the FORD solenoid at the same time the starter is energized.

Doc
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Old 09-16-2006, 02:57 PM
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Hope that starter works for you.
I am sorry that I did not mention some creative wiring necessary
for use with a points type dizzy.
I have an hei--so it was pretty easy.
Did the starter give you more room????
Sure did me---especially like the wiring low--so it is accessable.

Bryan
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Old 09-16-2006, 05:38 PM
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Doc here,

If you want to use a relay, (smaller, easier to work with, hide , ect..) Here is a drawing I made for that:



Pretty Simple stuff actually..

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Old 09-16-2006, 06:59 PM
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Small world.I just installed a permanent magnet starter in a '74 Camaro,from a 4.3 V6.Warning! The original bolts are not long enough.Had to use longer bolts.So the brown heavier wire goes to Sol and the yellow going back up to coil + I left disconnected.The engine starts just fine,but I thought about running a wire from the fuse box (acc) to a small button on the dash and then to coil +.When the situation demanded a hotter spark I could press the button.Whaddyathink?
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Old 09-16-2006, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulo 1
Small world.I just installed a permanent magnet starter in a '74 Camaro,from a 4.3 V6.Warning! The original bolts are not long enough.Had to use longer bolts.So the brown heavier wire goes to Sol and the yellow going back up to coil + I left disconnected.The engine starts just fine,but I thought about running a wire from the fuse box (acc) to a small button on the dash and then to coil +.When the situation demanded a hotter spark I could press the button.Whaddyathink?

Doc here,

Well, not knowing the type coil you have, High performance coils can pull up to 40 amps...

To find switch gear up to the task could be expensive, and risking buss damage, I'd go with a relay..

If you follow the circuit it adds pure battery power from the battery to the Coil + through the contacts..with a 2 amp control (your switch which can be an off the rack 5 amp contact inexpensive switch) or just parallel the "S" wire from a FUSED switched source..much safer option..and automatic..

As in: " Dang! I forgot to push the button in time.." while your waiting for a jump from road service..OR worse...your better half hasn't a clue what it does..all SHE knows is this old car didn't start again on a cold rainy day and is waiting for the tow from hell..

What ever you do, find out WHAT the coil actually draws..it will range between 20 and 40 amps..and BE sure your wire and switchgear can handle it..

If you can't find an amp value, measure the coil primary, with a DVOM , set for ohms, RX1, Calibrated 000, it should read less than an ohm, but more than 000, take that value, and apply a little ohms law:

I=E/R...

Or say, for a performance coil,

14.4 volts / 0.30 ohms = 47.1/3 amps...that will give you your wire gauge, and switchgear contact demands.

Doc
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Old 09-17-2006, 09:26 AM
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Ok Docvette.Your electricity knowledge is always helpfull.Yes my ideia of a button switch is the typical "this is my toy and nobody touches it".This Camaro does have the original breaker points and coil system.

Could I run a DVOM adjusted to amps draw in series with the coil + to find out it's demand? The harness is original and in excellent shape.Current should vary with RPM,I guess.
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Old 09-17-2006, 03:02 PM
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Doc here,

You COULD , only IF your meter was CAPABLE of 50 amps...(Most are not, and Max out around 10 amps).

The best way is to use The math..Measure the primary, It will fall between .3 and .9 Ohms..

I=E/R....

14.4 volts is your maximum Voltage...

Assume your Resistance of the primary is .3 of an ohm...

Gives you 47 amps draw WHEN the Coil is loaded (points closed) .

To measure a coil..



Or you could , If you have an OLD shunt type AMP gauge place that in line , It will give you a "Ballpark" Figure..but not an accurate one...



The easiest way to go is the relay, and If you want the hidden button, use that instead of hooking the "S" wire to the Relay Coil. In this configuration, you can control the 47 amp coil power demands Via the relay contacts with only a 1 amp switch and fuse to control the relay COIL..

You DO NOT want to swamp the coil...

BTW: This always gets attention..Guy's say .. I can run that coil on 14 gauge wire (which gets very hot..) and be just fine..screw relays..screw big wires..

Here is the mindset..If you are heating wire and switch gear, with undersized wire and whistling past the graveyard on harness meltdown and fire..AND BARELY getting away with it..

Consider this..: That performance 50 KV coil you paid $159 for .. Is only putting out about 25 KV (or less, which is about what a poor condition stocker puts out )...and will probably sputter and fart under full load (WOT) BECAUSE it has about HALF the available current to operate it..the rest is being consumed as HEAT .. and doing NO useful work.

I always hear: "Car , after it's warm, misfires after 3500 RPM.." goes on to describe a Wiz~Bang Ignition system they just installed, with every bell and whistle known to man..and it runs like Crap in a can BECAUSE it was wired with 18 gauge wire..("Man..I ain't gonna change that stuff..it will be good.. worked before, right? " ) Most likely, the ONLY reason it didn't burn out is because a coil is only 50% Duty cycle..(on half the time, off half the time).

IF you want some graphical Evidence..Wire your headlights with a relay system..use the old power wire to turn the relay on / off..and run a 10 gauge wire to the relay normally open, and the headlights to the relay center wiper..You'll find out..your headlights will be ABOUT twice as bright as BEFORE without adding anything else..the lows will be like highs and he highs will be like HID's..

NOW, apply that same logic to your IGNITION system...

Doc
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Old 09-17-2006, 03:40 PM
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Yes good point Docvette.See,a friend here has a '71 Firebird that would not rev above 5k in parking, WOT.The ignition misfired that badly.Then I insisted on a HEI which he finally imported.I went trough the trouble of removing the bulkhead plug,pulling the spade connector,separating the original wire,recrimping wire twice as thick,and only then feeding the HEI.Now the engine will rev past 6k until it floats.

But I always wondered,what with the wiring behind the bulkhead plug?... is it thick enough?
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Old 09-17-2006, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulo 1
Yes good point Docvette.See,a friend here has a '71 Firebird that would not rev above 5k in parking, WOT.The ignition misfired that badly.Then I insisted on a HEI which he finally imported.I went trough the trouble of removing the bulkhead plug,pulling the spade connector,separating the original wire,recrimping wire twice as thick,and only then feeding the HEI.Now the engine will rev past 6k until it floats.

But I always wondered,what with the wiring behind the bulkhead plug?... is it thick enough?

Doc here,

Usually (but not always) That wire goes to a buss bar (big brass bar in the fuse panel that switches with the key) and the wire, if you look on the Ignition switch plug, will be 10 gauge for all Start, Ignition, functions (pinks, purples , Yellows and oranges ) ...the others being smaller gauge..

SO yes, in short..past the bulkhead, GM had the foresight to provide enough wire / Buss integrity to carry the heavy loading.

Doc
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Old 09-20-2006, 01:22 PM
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Wouldn't it just be easier to remove the ballast resistor?????

Cam
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Old 09-20-2006, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CamSweet
Wouldn't it just be easier to remove the ballast resistor?????

Cam

Doc here,

The Ballast is not the issue..But even if it was, removing it would net you points that burn up and coils that fail every few weeks..

What he is dealing with is the "R" or secondary Ignition wire that bypasses the ballast to the coil to supply 12 volts during crank mode , a lifesaver on a cold day..or low battery.

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Old 09-20-2006, 04:37 PM
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I agree, if he had points. Buuutttttt... he has a pertronix installed..

Cam
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