Engine Bearings Failure (again) BBC 555CI, OFFROAD - Page 2 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2013, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by TJ555 View Post
Hello , i have a edelbrock/musi 555 697hp engine, its a Big Block Chevy with DART BIG-M BLOCK, i have a problem with it, it keep failing main bearings, it's the third time in less than 3k Miles, i use this engine for offroading (hillclimbing in sand) i use 0.0023-0.0025 clearance on main bearings on the last rebuild, the engine see big load and like 6000-6500rpm for a long period, im using liquimoly 10w-60 oil, i was using clevite HNK Bearings, i was thinking it isn't too much clearance for aplication?, but i dont know how much is ok.

Sorry about mistake on my english, hope someone can help me

Thanks
My first suspicion when I see the words bearing failure and hill climbing combined in the same sentence is oil starvation at the pump. 6000 and up RPM for sustained periods is pretty severe, small errors in lubrication quickly build disasters at those RPMs. I don't exactly know what you're using for a pan and its internal oil management but off-road where the vehicle is exposed to all sorts of unusual angles very much risks allowing the pump to suck air. A deep sump pan with a lot of baffles and traps around the pickup is helpful along with a good louvered windage tray, crank stripper, and a rear main guard that keeps the oil from creeping up the back of the pan and flooding the rear of the crankshaft. Barring using a deep pan, a hammer head kick out style is the next choice with the same sort of innards. Certainly the bullet proof solution is a dry sump.

Filtration can also be a big issue. Whatís needed are multiple, remote filters that are small enough in micros to stop the grit that gets into an engine when playing in the dirt yet provides enough filter area that they don't put a pressure back up on the pump. Lots of guys believe that running a filter or filters without the filter bypass valve will force all the oil through the filter, this however is not exactly correct. If the resistance against the pump of forcing all oil through the filter(s) exceeds the pressure setting of the pumpís relief valve, that valve opens and bypasses oil either back to intake side of the pump housing which heats the hell out of the oil, or if the pump is modified to bypass back to the sump unless care is taken to absorb its kinetic energy the returning spray can interfere and aerate the oil at the pickup, especially with shallower pans. Where multiple remote filters are used they must be plumbed in parallel so the pump sees itself pushing into the larger surface area provided by the multiple filters. If the pumps relief valve is set very high or blocked in the belief this will force oil through the filter regardless of the resistance, all that will happen is the grit will be forced through the filter medium or that the medium itself will structurally fail and circulate the wreckage with the oil.

You can gain a little protection against dry running by adding an excess of ZDDP, moly, graphite, and even PTFE (Teflon) additives to provide a little dry lube to the bearings for those moments when air gets delivered instead of oil. I have no experience with Liquimoly those that like it from those who don't sound like the usual patter on any oil. If I had a BMW or Mercedes it would get Chevron DELO just like everything from my Beech to my Toro. I wouldn't put Castrol on my wife's sewing machine let alone in any vehicle, so I'm, also, not without my prejudices when it comes to oils.

Bogie
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2013, 12:22 AM
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Smokey Yunick preached the gospel a thousand times, if the wet sump system is in use and swallows a tiny bit of air, then you will be referring to the engine in the past tense. What is your competition running? Are they using a dry sump system? If they are and your competeing then don't even waste your money. The winners didn't get to the winners circle by being dumb. When were talking angles, were also talking the oil pump swallowing air and it takes very little air to kill the bearings.
The problem your engine has is on the wall. Go with the dry sump and absurb it's cost, if you try to continue with the wet sump you'll spend more money trying to find a way to keep it from destroying itself so you may as well accept the fact that a dry sump system is in order.
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Old 04-20-2013, 09:32 AM
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If the failure is isolated to the mains, its not detonation or lack of oil control, its heat.
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Old 04-20-2013, 01:26 PM
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all use wet sump in my competition, i also have 2 SBC with wet sump and the same use and they are ok, no problem, and the have stock pan and pickup.

Here is the Filter i use : http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-22459/overview/ , Here is the oil cooler and adapter http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tr...make/chevrolet
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/flx-45951/overview/

Will an oil acumulator help?, or it's worthless in this case?

Thanks Again
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2013, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ555 View Post
all use wet sump in my competition, i also have 2 SBC with wet sump and the same use and they are ok, no problem, and the have stock pan and pickup.

Here is the Filter i use : http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-22459/overview/ , Here is the oil cooler and adapter http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tr...make/chevrolet
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/flx-45951/overview/

Will an oil acumulator help?, or it's worthless in this case?

Thanks Again
it will help as the pump sucks air the oil psi drops the accumulator forces oil into the system..
your oil pick up needs to be moved.. to the back wall so on hillsit's covered in oil.. you should also open up the rear oil drain back holes as all the oils going out those..
you need to first off change from that oil you where use'n
then make a oil pick up that feeds from the back wall of the pan (picture in your head a vacuum thats sucks from the back pan floor and 1" up the rear wall.. that'll keep the pick up covered
next is getting the oil back down to the pan.. on the inclines one half the drain back holes are used..(the rear) clean these up..
toss the high volume pump. get a standard oil pump..

your problem is your pickup is placed in a spot thats sucking air on incline.. and the oil not returning fast enough..
on top of that a high vol oil pump is flooding the top end sucking the pan dry..
I'd get the 3 quart oil accuninator and plum it into the mains feed.. it looses oil presser the accuminator will feed the mains.. as a safety..
but you still need to fix the issues listed above..
dry sump would be ideal here but are not cheap.. but then again neither is that mussie bullet either..

ppull the pan put oil in it and hold it at the inclines you run at.. the lowest point is where you want that pick up.. and thats going to be the back of the pan where it goes from floor to rear wall..
you'll note that the pick up you have now is most likely no where near that area..
good luck..
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2013, 03:33 PM
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If the pump were sucking air, the number 5 or 6 rod bearing would fail before a main.
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Old 04-20-2013, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by lmsport View Post
If the pump were sucking air, the number 5 or 6 rod bearing would fail before a main.
not always
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:43 PM
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the form of oil you are using, how much zinc and or other additional additives are in the oil?
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Old 04-21-2013, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by prumora1 View Post
the form of oil you are using, how much zinc and or other additional additives are in the oil?
Zn: 970-1150 ppm

http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/mediendb.nsf/gfx2/1390%20Synthoil%20Race%20Tech%20GT1%20SAE%2010W-60_EN.pdf/$file/1390%20Synthoil%20Race%20Tech%20GT1%20SAE%2010W-60_EN.pdf
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Old 04-21-2013, 10:45 AM
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Can you help me with a dry sump kit from the engine, i dont know all the parts i need to build it

Thanks
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Old 04-21-2013, 07:35 PM
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I was looking for parts to build a dry sump, and i have a couple of questions

between this 2 pumps, which one should i choose: 1)
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-22244
2)http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-22344

i choose this tank because it have 10qt, it's ok? : http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ctr-23-110l

also this plate to block actual hole of wet sump pump: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-23790

i dont know about brackets and pulleys i need, also about the oil pan, can i modify mines or i should buy a new one for the application?

Thanks
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2013, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ555 View Post
all use wet sump in my competition, i also have 2 SBC with wet sump and the same use and they are ok, no problem, and the have stock pan and pickup.

Here is the Filter i use : http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-22459/overview/ , Here is the oil cooler and adapter http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tr...make/chevrolet
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/flx-45951/overview/

Will an oil acumulator help?, or it's worthless in this case?

Thanks Again
An accumulator can be very helpful but may not have a fast enough reaction time if this is indeed is an issue of sucking air for a brief moment.

Things to check is the fit of the pickup tube where it enters the housing as well as its length for gaps and cracks. The pickup's strainer head on the pan end also needs to be checked for cracks and its position from the pan bottom which should be no closer than 1/4 inch (6-7mm) nor further than 3/8 inch (9-10 mm). If the tube has been welded of brazed to the housing check the housing for warpage and cracking as well. Also, inspect the relief valve spring to inusre that it works properly and that the valve doesn't hang up in its bore.

My pump prefrence is the Melling 10552C for its bolt on rather than press on pickup tube. I like to bracket the pickup strainer head back to the pump preferably to the mounting stud in the manner of the Milodon 18200 pickup. I also like the Milodon pump support bracket 17200. At sustained high RPM the pump really shakes to where breakage and cracking or vibrations opening up gaps to air injestion of the pump housing itself and/or the pickup tube is not uncommon. Use of the ARP pump mounting stud appropriate to the pump being used is a good idea. I'd also recommend saftey wire on all the pump fasteners.
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Old 04-22-2013, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ555 View Post
I was looking for parts to build a dry sump, and i have a couple of questions

between this 2 pumps, which one should i choose: 1)
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-22244
2)http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-22344

i choose this tank because it have 10qt, it's ok? : http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ctr-23-110l

also this plate to block actual hole of wet sump pump: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-23790

i dont know about brackets and pulleys i need, also about the oil pan, can i modify mines or i should buy a new one for the application?

Thanks
please help with dry sump
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 04-23-2013, 07:41 AM
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A dry sump oil pan is required.
You need scavenge filters to protect the pump, inlet filter to protect the engine, probably need a cooler, and maybe a heater depending on race day weather, a pump drive kit, and a pump mounting kit along with the inlet adapter and oil tank.

I like Peterson Fluid Systems
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Old 07-19-2013, 04:01 PM
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Problem

Problem persists, i buy and installed a aviaid dry sump system 4-stage, it works great, oil pressure is constant at any condition, but today i check my bearings and all main are starting to fail, i was using 10w40 and i just think about clearance, i was at 0.0025-0.0027, should i use 0.0035-0.0038?, what else can it be?

Thanks
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