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Old 02-02-2009, 10:51 AM
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Engine leveling again

Hi guys, i read the thread about leveling motor. Step 1: put a level on the intake front to back. Step 2: leveling left to right. With this set up done, i'm gonne have a natural 2-3 degrees down on the back of the motor right? My question is: When the transmission is in place without any transmission mount or crossmember, can i have on the transmisiion oil pan the same level on the intake. I have a 350 with a 700r4. Am I clear enough . Thanks, Roger

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Old 02-02-2009, 11:48 AM
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Don't worry about the intake pad being level. From the factory they tilted forward so that under hard acceleration the fuel wouldn't slosh away from the jets.

Focus on the driveline angles. Get those right because they HAVE to be right. If the carb is level or leans 2-3 degrees forward, no worries.
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Old 02-02-2009, 02:46 PM
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use the valve cover as an angle measuring point.

engine and rear end should be at the same angle.
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Old 02-02-2009, 03:09 PM
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I always set the carb base level on all of my cars.
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Old 02-02-2009, 07:59 PM
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OK, i put the carb to perfect level.On the valve cover i have 4 deg. down on the back if I'm standing on the driver side.It's more then 2-3 deg. Curtis73. I know this thing too: between the rear end & the transmission, I'm not suppose to have more that A HALF DEGREES between those two. More then that, i'm gonna have some vibrations.By the way, if the carb is to perfect level, should i have the same measure on the transmission oil pan ???

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Old 02-02-2009, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMC1950
OK, i put the carb to perfect level.On the valve cover i have 4 deg. down on the back if I'm standing on the driver side.It's more then 2-3 deg. Curtis73. I know this thing too: between the rear end & the transmission, I'm not suppose to have more that A HALF DEGREES between those two. More then that, i'm gonna have some vibrations.By the way, if the carb is to perfect level, should i have the same measure on the transmission oil pan ???

If you have 4 deg. rear tilt on eng. your trans pan will end up level. Thats the way they are designed.
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Old 02-02-2009, 08:48 PM
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The angle on the transmission pan is really irrelevant. Like NEW INTERIORS, I also level the carb with the car at finished ride height. Having it level helps with setting float levels, and it looks "right". To find the angle to use to set up the pinon on the rear axle, set the carb mounting surface to level laterally and longitudinally then check the angle on the engine oil pan mounting surface. That surface is parallel with the crankshaft and the output shaft of the transmission. It will be typically 3-4 degrees down in the rear. You can measure the crankshaft angle other places, ie the top of the cylinder head, intake mounting surface etc..

Keep in mind that if you are running a supercharger, those intake manifolds run parallel to the crankshaft and are NOT angled like a typical intake manifold.
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Old 02-02-2009, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aosborn
The angle on the transmission pan is really irrelevant. Like NEW INTERIORS, I also level the carb with the car at finished ride height. Having it level helps with setting float levels, and it looks "right". To find the angle to use to set up the pinon on the rear axle, set the carb mounting surface to level laterally and longitudinally then check the angle on the engine oil pan mounting surface. That surface is parallel with the crankshaft and the output shaft of the transmission. It will be typically 3-4 degrees down in the rear. You can measure the crankshaft angle other places, ie the top of the cylinder head, intake mounting surface etc..

Keep in mind that if you are running a supercharger, those intake manifolds run parallel to the crankshaft and are NOT angled like a typical intake manifold.
Many after market manifolds (Victor Jr.) do not have 4 deg. angle on carb pad. If I have to choose, I would angle the motor to establish correct pinion/ driveline angle and let the carb take an angle if necessary.
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Old 02-02-2009, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 406 bug
Many after market manifolds (Victor Jr.) do not have 4 deg. angle on carb pad. If I have to choose, I would angle the motor to establish correct pinion/ driveline angle and let the carb take an angle if necessary.
Disregarding the angle of the carb mounting surface for a moment. I have always adjusted the pinion angle to match up with whatever angle the engine/transmission is installed at, not the other way around. If the carb surface is parallel to the crank, mount the engine at whatever angle you want and then match the pinion to it. As curtis73 mentioned, some folks like to have the carb down in front a little, some down to the rear a little, it really is personal preference.
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Old 02-02-2009, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aosborn
Disregarding the angle of the carb mounting surface for a moment. I have always adjusted the pinion angle to match up with whatever angle the engine/transmission is installed at, not the other way around. If the carb surface is parallel to the crank, mount the engine at whatever angle you want and then match the pinion to it. As curtis73 mentioned, some folks like to have the carb down in front a little, some down to the rear a little, it really is personal preference.

If you are building from ground up, I think it is wise to consider both engine height/angle relative to drive line /pinion angle. Without this consideration it is possible to end up with a pinion angle that will result drivability issues.
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Old 02-03-2009, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 406 bug
If you are building from ground up, I think it is wise to consider both engine height/angle relative to drive line /pinion angle. Without this consideration it is possible to end up with a pinion angle that will result drivability issues.
I appreciate the discussion, but what kind of issues are you referring too?
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Old 02-03-2009, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMC1950
Hi guys, i read the thread about leveling motor. Step 1: put a level on the intake front to back. Step 2: leveling left to right. With this set up done, i'm gonne have a natural 2-3 degrees down on the back of the motor right? My question is: When the transmission is in place without any transmission mount or crossmember, can i have on the transmisiion oil pan the same level on the intake. I have a 350 with a 700r4. Am I clear enough . Thanks, Roger
On level ground, the first thing you need to consider is that the frame is at the same angle to the ground as it will be when at ride height. i.e. you may have some rake where the front is lower than the rear. The frame will NOT necessarily be parallel to the ground.

Now you can set the engine in place between the frame rails in the location you wish.

Level the engine by placing a level on the intake carb base area. Level it front to rear as well as side to side.

Contrary to what some others have posted, for street applications, this is important on a carbureted engine to have the carb base level. In applications (mostly marine installations) where the engine is not leveled this way, angled shims are used between the carb and the intake manifold to get the base of the carb level.

There are some race only applications where this will vary.

On a Chevy small block there is a manufactured angle of 4 degrees at the carb mounting area. See picture below. Left click on it for a larger view. This will place the rear of the engine DOWN 4 degrees when leveled at the carb mounting area. The centerline of the rear axle pinion gear should be set at this same angle except it will be UP. This keeps the crank centerline parallel to the pinion centerline. Looking from above, the crank centerline and the pinion centerlines should also be parallel.

The installed height can be whatever you wish. Keep in mind that the lowest point of the engine (bottom of the oil pan) should be above what I call the scrub line. This is so that if all four tires were flat that no part of the engine would be on the ground.
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Old 02-03-2009, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aosborn
I appreciate the discussion, but what kind of issues are you referring too?

Like drive shaft failure. Go to the Knowledge base for good info on establishing proper angles/ relationships.
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Old 02-03-2009, 09:17 AM
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oil pan clearance

Some cars will bang the oilpan on the road The kids across the road watched a lot of the Dukes of Hazzard jumps. Ruined a lot of stuff before their dad got them into off road full roll cage lifted vehicles. .
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Old 02-03-2009, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frisco
Contrary to what some others have posted, for street applications, this is important on a carbureted engine to have the carb base level. In applications (mostly marine installations) where the engine is not leveled this way, angled shims are used between the carb and the intake manifold to get the base of the carb level.
I just have to disagree. I'm not being argumentative, but this is just from my 15 years experience at doing oddball engine swaps in a hot rod shop. That might be true of a few cars, but not all. Take for example chevy trucks. SBCs in chevy trucks are installed with the driveline 1 degree down, which angles the carb about 3 degrees forward. Then consider that the same engine and mounts were used with about 15 combinations of spring packages, suspension packages, weight ratings, 4x4 or 4x2, and you can see how the frame (and engine crank centerline along with actual carb leveling) varied greatly. Now, throw in the mix the fact that BBCs installed with a lower crank centerline due to different motor mounts. There again is another combination that angles the carb further forward yet. The angle of the driveline in relation to the pinion angle is the more important factor.

Marine applications don't level the carb. They angle it forward. Usually the manifold's 4 degree pad is enough. Older volvo outdrives which required a down angle on the crankshaft to install actually used a manifold with a much higher rake to the pad. The reason is that under load, the boat will always be nose-up. Some boats go very high nose up while achieving plane.

Quote:
On a Chevy small block there is a manufactured angle of 4 degrees at the carb mounting area. See picture below. Left click on it for a larger view. This will place the rear of the engine DOWN 4 degrees when leveled at the carb mounting area. The centerline of the rear axle pinion gear should be set at this same angle except it will be UP. This keeps the crank centerline parallel to the pinion centerline. Looking from above, the crank centerline and the pinion centerlines should also be parallel.
I agree with your assessment of how to set the driveline angle, but there are two problems. firstly, that might work on a truck, but in something like a Ford Maverick or Chevy Nova... no way. 4 degrees down at the tranny and 4 degrees up at the axle means WAY too much deflection at the Ujoint on a short driveshaft. If the car is lowered, its even worse.

The driveline angle needs to be set for the vehicle. You can't say randomly that the carb HAS to be level and therefore the engine HAS to be 4 degrees down, because that driveline angle won't work for all cars. The driveline angles must be the same at the tranny output shaft and pinion, AND set up so that there is no less than 1/2 degree deflection at the Ujoint, and no more than X degrees depending on the joint and driveshaft length. To say that you can accomplish that by always setting the engine to 4 degrees down is just not the case. If you're putting a chevy engine in a chevy vehicle, maybe, but we're talking about starting from scratch. Maybe he's putting a Caddy 500 in a street rod. We can't use Caddy's designs and assume that the rest of the engineering will fall into place, he has to install the ENGINE where it needs to go. Factor in that the carb doesn't have to be level to operate and it frees you up to design the driveline angle as you need it. But, setting the carb to level and assuming that you'll be able to properly custom design the rest of the driveline is just not the right way to do it.

Take for instance when I put a Caddy 500 in my Pontiac Bonneville. In order to get hood clearance I had to install the engine very low which allowed (required) me to tuck the tranny up higher in the tunnel. The crank centerline was angled 2 degrees up so I fabbed trailing arms that put the pinion angle 2 degrees down. That made a deflection angle of 1 degree at the Ujoint. I don't know what carb mount angle Caddy used, but even if it was 4 degrees that means my carb was angled 6 degrees forward. If I had stressed out about keeping the carb level, I would have needed a hood scoop, and would have had about 4" of clearance between the oil pan and crossmember, and would have had more driveshaft deflection than I needed.

Quote:
The installed height can be whatever you wish. Keep in mind that the lowest point of the engine (bottom of the oil pan) should be above what I call the scrub line. This is so that if all four tires were flat that no part of the engine would be on the ground.
Boy, do I agree with this one I try to keep my pans slightly above the crossmember (if there is one)

I'll only add one other thing. On a leaf-sprung axle with a high torque/high traction setup, it is fair to install the pinion angle down 1/2 degree from equal. Under load, the pinion will wrap the springs and lift a little. Having the right angle under load is more important than during regular driving, and 1/2 degree doesn't usually make any vibes.
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