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Old 12-29-2004, 04:57 PM
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Engine Masters Challenge

http://www.westechperformance.com/pa...nemasters.html

I have not heard much about this other than this was on pump gas?

Can anybody fill me in on the details on how these guys extracted nearly 600 HP @ 6000rpm on pump gas?!?!
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Old 12-29-2004, 05:24 PM
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Try this...

http://www.hotrod.com/howto/113_0206_1000/index.html
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Old 12-29-2004, 06:31 PM
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I found that very interesting.

A couple of things I noticed was that:
1) Main bolts instead of studs..explanation> the caps are the key

2)Square ports were modified into oval!?

3)Larger diameter lifters were used...much like NASCAR allowing chevy guys to run a ford lifter due to the larger diameter.

Now I do disagree with one thing I read... the larger lifters
Quote:
"Most rollers are 0.750. If a larger roller is used, a duration change will occur. For example, if an 0.810-diameter roller is used on a 280-degree cam designed for a 0.750 roller, you'll get 1.3 degrees of extra duration at 0.050 lift. The area under the airflow tent gets bigger without making the tent any taller."
That seems false to me. The reason for a larger diameter lifter is to allow for more lift with virtually the same duration. Duration can always be increased without extra lift. Strange and I'm now scratching my head b/c this guy must know what he's talking about?
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Old 12-29-2004, 06:44 PM
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The larger lifter will have a larger roller (larger in diameter). When a cam is ground with a .750 roller in mind and you install a larger roller on the lifter it will make a difference.

One thing about the Engine Challenge, they do a lot of things that would not live on the street or even at the track. It is all about making the most power for a few minutes on the dyno. This is why so many of them break down and not finish the competition. They interviewed a few of the guys and the guys making the big power admitted the engines were never designed to actually be run in a car on pump gas. For instance there were a couple guys running huge compression and or tiny bearings (to reduce drag). Those things won't work in a real street car. What I am saying is, don't get to excited over the power numbers they make. They are bending the rules in every way possible and are over the edge for any true street engine.

Royce
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Old 12-29-2004, 07:08 PM
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A couple of months back Chevy High Performance had a small block the did 675 horse at 659ft lbs torque. It used a dart block and was 472 cubic inches. Ran on pump gas. They had a high compression model that need a splash of race gas added that did 750 horses. Its a lot of power but te lower horse version was around $13,000. Way too rich for my blood. If some one is really interested I will try to find a link on line. They listed all the parts they used.
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Old 12-29-2004, 07:25 PM
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I remember also seeing a 434 or 406...? It did around 637 HP on pump gas but of course used a vac. pump also... (AFR`s and so on) But I could not find a link but do remember it in a mag (think it was Hotrod...?

Just found that BBC and thought it was pretty nice...

Note: it idles at 900rpm too
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Old 12-29-2004, 09:13 PM
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Heres the one I was talking about.

http://www.shafiroff.com/472_675_engine.asp

It the ultra street SS motor but they said it needs 94 octane. The mag article said 93. That is as high as we get around here. Its in the June 2004 issue of Chevy High Performance by the way.
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Old 12-29-2004, 11:37 PM
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A 24,000 mile warranty? LOL, I NEED that motor! I wonder if there's a deductable

472 is a lot of ci. How many are these engine masters allowed?

Really I was curious if they ever released intake runner cc's and approx cam profiles also?
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Old 12-30-2004, 12:04 AM
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The Engine Challenge has set parameters/rules. They have a cubic inch limit and all parts are supposed to be readily availible to the public. No custom headers or sheet metal. I don't remember all the rules. The small block and big block challenge I saw had cubic inch limits. I just don't remember what the limits were (I know the small block limit was WAY under 472ci).

Like I said above take the results with a grain of salt. Youcan not get 94 octane pump gas at most stations (I have heard of a few that have 100 in the pump but, I have yet to see it). If you are going to have a street engine that requires 94 octane you might as well go for the gusto and up the compression and use race fuel because that's what you are going to have to run anyway.

I wonder if that engines warranty (that requires 94 octane) will be void when you run 93 or 91 in it? I bet that is their out when someone detonates one and breaks it.

Royce
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Old 12-30-2004, 06:24 AM
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Engine Master's Challenge

Guys,

The Engine Master’s Challenge is a Dyno Racing contest. It is not intended to be an engine that the common person can or should build. The goal behind this contest is to allow engine builders to race head to head without the problems of the racecar, track, chassis, etc. It is designed as a three-step contest for engine builders. Basically it breaks down to which engine builder can do the following the best:

1) Interpret the rules?
2) Build the best engine within the given rules?
3) Tune their engine within the allotted time frame (20 minutes), and conditions?

This years contest was a maximum of 410”; there were many specifications and rules that these engines had to meet. A lot of the things that were done for this specific contest are not things you would do on an engine in the real world. A prime example was on the winning engine from Jon Kasse the head gaskets were close to ˝” thick. This is a great contest for what it is, and some great ideas come out of it, but this is not “how to build a street engine”. We’re very proud that all three years winners have used our carburetors, and wish everyone good luck on the 2005 Big Block challenge.
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Old 12-30-2004, 06:54 AM
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1/2" HGs! Amazing! I would have never ever suspected that!

Thanks for the replies guys. I see they did use some pretty crazy tactics but it doesn't change that they were able to pull these crazy numbers out of apparent thin air. It seems that if a similar cam, intake runners and valves were used the power levels would be close even without the fancy tricks. they probably used a cam with 102degrees of lobe sep or something?
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Old 12-30-2004, 07:18 AM
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NXS,

It's not just one thing, it was lots of things. Trick coatings, a ton more compression than you could run on a Real engine. These engines had to survive a maximum of about 20 dyno pulls (on the very high side) during the contest, and not all of them did.
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Old 12-30-2004, 09:44 AM
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Tech @ BG,
Very well said!

Another "trick" some of them used was to turn the crank journals down to a VERY small diameter. This is great for power on the dyno but in a street car the bearing would heat up in a hurry.

As you said there are a lot of tricks not just one or two. It is intersting reading but, you really can't take too much more than that from it.

The guys that build the engines come up with some unique ways to make a little extra power.

Royce
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Old 12-30-2004, 07:42 PM
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Iunderstand what you guys are saying about not being able to recreate those stats for street use but it doesn't change that there must be a magic head/cam combo capable of making massive power @ 6000 rpm.

I have done some research and this Sherman guy has been at it for a while, making these high output sbc's.

I found an old article in CarCraft(1999) where Sherman shows how to build a, as the title says, "357ci, 580hp No Nitrous, No Boost" pump gas

nothing special really, just (magically)ported iron eagles and an isky 580 solid cam topped off with a 950 holley....7500 rpm.

Some will say too much cam, too much carb but Sherman KNOWS.
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Old 12-30-2004, 11:20 PM
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NXS, there is no magic and your much closer to being right than you think. Killer heads with a killer port job, a killer roller cam, fully machined and bludprinted aftermarket block, custom pistons, killer rods, custom pushrods, top quality fuel induction system, shaft rocker system, killer valvesprings, killer valves with killer valvejob plus a thousand other details and you can have 600-700 HP and drive it on the street. How do I know, I drive one. I lay 700 on the dyno with a 454 small block, and crusied Power Tour last year on pump 93, and will again this year. Splash race gas in it if I want to hit more than 125 shot on the nitrous is the only time things get serious in the gas tank. No need to ever rev over 6500.

Here is the downside. Every year I pull the motor and tear it down and inspect every crack and crevise. I test the valve springs, repalce roller lifters, check bearings, check rings and bore. many times every year I am dropping at least $2000 just to keep things fresh and avoid putting a hole in the side of my $5000 Aluminium block or into the combustion chamber of my $6000+ set of All Pro heads.

So here is the hook and the other downside. To make huge power on the street, or strip for that matter, takes huge amounts of cash. The parts to make this work will make the $1000 bills fly out of your pocket faster than you can imagine. Sure you can go cheap in a lot of areas, but in the long run it's going to REALLY cost you.

If you want to do it cheaper, from a relative standpoint, supercharging or turbo is the other way to go. To make power in a streetable RPM range is not cheap on pump gas. Not seeing the Joe Sherman article on the 580 hp 355 but having worked with iron eagle heads it would not be what I'd classify as streetable off the top of my head. A peak of 7500 for the street is too high for any kind of reliabilty long term. Down low it sounds like it could be a pretty soft runnner which could make it hard to drive on the street.

As a side note that I thought you'd be interested in friends of mine know Joe Sherman and were finalists in the Engine Masters the first year with him. They said he was one of the nicest guys you could ever meet. Great sense of humor and very funny to be around. By looking at him you'd think he was a bum walking off the street looking for a handout. A very unassuming gentleman it sounds like.
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