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Old 09-01-2011, 02:32 PM
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engine mounting in frame

ok so this may seem anal but i'm a measure twice, forget go back measure twice more, think about it for awhile.....you get the picture.

so i am correcting the mounts in my 38 dodge frame as the mounts that were installed by the previous owner put the engine at a high positive angle.

so my question or request is.... if i have a sbc and a turbo 350 mated and sitting perfectly at the 3-4* angle. what is the measurement from the center line of the plane of the motor mounts to the tranny mount.

in other words how much higher is the center line of the motor mounts than the transmission mount.

thanks for the help.

guff
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Old 09-01-2011, 04:18 PM
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Depends on the rake of the frame , where the rear mount needs tobe in relation to the rearend ,etc. ...etc. there is no set answer to your ?


dave
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Old 09-01-2011, 04:19 PM
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If you have the engine trans combo you can set it on the floor at the right angle and make the measurement.

But I put the combo in the frame, align and angle it, back it up to the firewall or back the fan away from the radiator and cut the firewall if necessary, now you have the frame at the ride height and the eng-trans sitting there in it and you can attach the motor and trans mounts and tack weld them to the frame....

Just knowing the fore-aft and up-down measurements and welding in the mounts without the mounts on the engine and in the frame seems to me to be a recipe for having to go back and do something over.

Unless you have a jig.....
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Old 09-01-2011, 05:30 PM
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Guff,

Your '38 has a high arch in the frame where the motor mounts must sit. My suggestion to you would be, take about an inch and 3/4 off the top of the frame rail to level the top off the frame in the engine compartment, add 2 inches to the bottom side of the frame rail to strengthen the overall frame, box in the inside also. This will give you a straight frame to mount the engine and will allow you plenty of straight frame area to mount the 'hats' for the Mustang ll front end you are probably putting on too.

Cutting the 1 3/4 inch off the top should give you about 18 to 20 inches of flat top rail space on the frame. This will also allow you to mount your engine in a little lower and center the fan a bit better in front of the radiator.

I did this modification on my '37 Plymouth w/360 and a 727 trans about 15 years ago. I still have the pictures of the mod if you need more help.
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Old 09-01-2011, 06:24 PM
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I kind of have the same question. In my project car,( a sbc 350/330horse mated to 700R4 trannie and hooked to a narrowed 9" 4-bar, triangulated rear end ) with a 2" x 3" tube chassis, Mustang II fronnt suspension. Body is a 1969 VW Squareback station wagon. I am trying to keep this ride as stock looking as possible, so I am running the same size wheels and tires all around. My question iswith wheels and tires on, chassis sitting level, when I mount my engine/trannie combo, with my protractor sitting on the intake manifold, what degree of tilt should I have front to rear?










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Old 09-01-2011, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V8Square
I kind of have the same question. In my project car,( a sbc 350/330horse mated to 700R4 trannie and hooked to a narrowed 9" 4-bar, triangulated rear end ) with a 2" x 3" tube chassis, Mustang II fronnt suspension. Body is a 1969 VW Squareback station wagon. I am trying to keep this ride as stock looking as possible, so I am running the same size wheels and tires all around. My question iswith wheels and tires on, chassis sitting level, when I mount my engine/trannie combo, with my protractor sitting on the intake manifold, what degree of tilt should I have front to rear?

Aways put your carb base plate level front to back with frame level... That should give you around 3 to 4 degrees down on the crank center line..
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Old 09-01-2011, 09:29 PM
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Intake manifolds have 3 to 5 degree of tilt from back (higher) to front (lower) built into the carb base plate to allow for acceleration shifting fuel towards the rear.

There are two places on an engine where it should be absolute level, one, is the oil pan rail, and the other is with the intake manifold removed; across the front and rear ribs of the lifter valley usually measured with a long level or a measuring beam and protractor.

Based on your question, V8square, you should be 3 to 5 degrees down in front.
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Old 09-01-2011, 09:36 PM
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Put your base plate level or your motor will look like it's nose diving...


If you put the oil pan rail level... It will point the carb down in the front.... And if you run some kind of scoop out the hood... It will also point down in the front...


Unless your planning on riding with the front wheels 3' off the ground all the time... Put the carb base plate level..

Last edited by NEW INTERIORS; 09-01-2011 at 10:02 PM.
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Old 09-01-2011, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alittle1
There are two places on an engine where it should be absolute level, one, is the oil pan rail
Man !!! You have to be joking... Right !!!!

Don't you know if you do this on a sbc... The crank will also be level.... The oil pan rail run's the same as the crank..

The crank CL is 3 to 4* down... Put your motor with the crank 3* down to the back... Then check your base plate....
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Old 09-02-2011, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alittle1
Intake manifolds have 3 to 5 degree of tilt from back (higher) to front (lower) built into the carb base plate to allow for acceleration shifting fuel towards the rear.

There are two places on an engine where it should be absolute level, one, is the oil pan rail, and the other is with the intake manifold removed; across the front and rear ribs of the lifter valley usually measured with a long level or a measuring beam and protractor.

Based on your question, V8square, you should be 3 to 5 degrees down in front.
Shouldn't it be just the opposite, 3 to 5 degrees down in rear?
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Old 09-02-2011, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEW INTERIORS
Aways put your carb base plate level front to back with frame level... That should give you around 3 to 4 degrees down on the crank center line..
So, let me just make sure I have this correct. With chassis level, front to rear, when setting my engine in place, for motor mount location, when setting the level on on my carb base plate, it (the level) should show level at that point and then my engine will be point downwards in the rear 3 - 4 degrees which should be correct? What happens, down the road just in case I may wish to lowere front end a little or add larger tires (taller) on the rear, which would in effect lower front end?
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Old 09-02-2011, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V8Square
So, let me just make sure I have this correct. With chassis level, front to rear, when setting my engine in place, for motor mount location, when setting the level on on my carb base plate, it (the level) should show level at that point and then my engine will be point downwards in the rear 3 - 4 degrees which should be correct? What happens, down the road just in case I may wish to lowere front end a little or add larger tires (taller) on the rear, which would in effect lower front end?

I set all my builds up with the frame level, And carb base plate level.... The little bit that may Change when the Rake of the cars.. Is to little to worry about.... Realize what 1* would be at 13'.

I never had any problems with this set up...With the Carb base plate level ,, It will give you 3* to 4* on the crank CL.... Doing it this way, Will like I said before, If your running a scoop out the hood..You want that to have the same rake as the car when at ride height... Even if the car has some rake... I set them level with the frame level.... You can do it any way you want..

This was two of my cars I did..Look good at how the motors sit...I hand made both... Carb plates level..


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Old 09-02-2011, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alittle1
Guff,

Your '38 has a high arch in the frame where the motor mounts must sit. My suggestion to you would be, take about an inch and 3/4 off the top of the frame rail to level the top off the frame in the engine compartment, add 2 inches to the bottom side of the frame rail to strengthen the overall frame, box in the inside also. This will give you a straight frame to mount the engine and will allow you plenty of straight frame area to mount the 'hats' for the Mustang ll front end you are probably putting on too.

Cutting the 1 3/4 inch off the top should give you about 18 to 20 inches of flat top rail space on the frame. This will also allow you to mount your engine in a little lower and center the fan a bit better in front of the radiator.

I did this modification on my '37 Plymouth w/360 and a 727 trans about 15 years ago. I still have the pictures of the mod if you need more help.
yes you are right on with your idea of the high arch frame. although the mII front end is not coming yet. the reason i am asking this question is that i already have the tranny cross member in there from where the engine was before. and i am trying to see if i have enough room on the high arched frame rail to get the motor hung in the front where i want it. am just trying to plan ahead so that i know if i need to change some thing now while the engine is not in the way.
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Old 09-02-2011, 08:55 AM
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Just to throw a monkey wrench into the works, how about the pinion (driveline) to trans angle? Getting the engine and trans to line up properly (height on the frame) with the rear end is important also. I've seen a few where the engine was mounted too high on the frame (alittle1 point?) and the driveline is at a terrible angle.
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Old 09-02-2011, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEW INTERIORS
I set all my builds up with the frame level, And carb base plate level.... The little bit that may Change when the Rake of the cars.. Is to little to worry about.... Realize what 1* would be at 13'.

I never had any problems with this set up...With the Carb base plate level ,, It will give you 3* to 4* on the crank CL.... Doing it this way, Will like I said before, If your running a scoop out the hood..You want that to have the same rake as the car when at ride height... Even if the car has some rake... I set them level with the frame level.... You can do it any way you want..

This was two of my cars I did..Look good at how the motors sit...I hand made both... Carb plates level..


you know i think you are right motor level in the frame will provide the correct look. that is what was wrong with the previous mounts the engine was not level in engine compartment.

so with that said it would still be hugely helpful to know the answer to my original question.

some thing i read said that nottom of oil pan and bottom of tranny pan are the same like it would sit flat on the ground like that? if that is true i think i can figure out that measurement.
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