engine swap 36 cord to GM V/8 FRONT WHEEL DRIVE - Page 8 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> General Rodding Tech
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #106 (permalink)  
Old 09-03-2012, 10:51 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: BEVERLY,MA
Posts: 41
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 25
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldBodyman View Post
Hi there,

"the front track of the cord is 58'' the toro is 63.5" i don't have hub to hub meas.(my cuz has them at his shop),"

the Chevy Colorado has a front track of 1460mm / 57.4 inches, should be in the ballpark for size/weight/strength. The wrecking yards can check nationwide for you for price/availability.

Have fun with it and keep posting.
hi oldbodyman, thanks for the tip,will definitly add it to our list of options.i will keep posting. regards,jerry

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #107 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2012, 04:25 PM
farna's Avatar
Member
 
Last wiki edit: AMC V-8s Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Batesburg-Leesville, SC
Age: 52
Posts: 1,635
Wiki Edits: 14

Thanks: 0
Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts
I didn't go through the entire thread, but since someone mentioned a Chevy Colorado I suppose you're thinking about using a 4x4 truck front axle and a transfer case locked into 4WD? There were (may still be!) some car transporters made that way maybe 10 years ago. 4x4 truck with a car trailer grafted on back. That made a very low deck front wheel drive transporter. I suppose you're thinking along the same lines....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #108 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2012, 07:38 PM
OneMoreTime's Avatar
Hotrodders.com moderator
 
Last wiki edit: Health and safety in the shop or garage
Last journal entry: Yard Dog pic
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Washington State
Age: 69
Posts: 7,286
Wiki Edits: 3

Thanks: 45
Thanked 143 Times in 135 Posts
Well i was thinking the front axle and such from a 4wd would be the most practical...

Sam
__________________
I have tried most all of it and now do what is known to work..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #109 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2012, 08:27 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 113
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Front diff from an IFS four wheel drive is definitely the way to go with the very limited space available up front in the Cord.
The difficult part will be finding one about right width, and with suitably tall gear ratio, that is not too heavy.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #110 (permalink)  
Old 09-10-2012, 04:00 AM
farna's Avatar
Member
 
Last wiki edit: AMC V-8s Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Batesburg-Leesville, SC
Age: 52
Posts: 1,635
Wiki Edits: 14

Thanks: 0
Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts
Knowing how the Cord is made, I agree. Depending on how the front diff is made it can be shortened, or shorter half shafts used. An AMC Eagle diff might be a good one to consider. That's a small car, narrower than most trucks, but uses a similar FWD axle arrangement. It's a Dana 30 differential, same as the one used in Jeeps, so there is a good gear selection out there. The diff is on the left with an axle tube running under the engine to the right. Flat flanges on each end for a GM type half-shaft.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #111 (permalink)  
Old 09-10-2012, 04:34 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 113
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Farna,
That looks mighty interesting, here is a picture of an Eagle front diff.
As you say, Dana 30 front diff ratios (in reverse rotation) down to 2.75 are available.
Original front track of Eagle is 59.6" It appears that the diff bolts rigidly onto the engine block.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #112 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2012, 04:00 AM
farna's Avatar
Member
 
Last wiki edit: AMC V-8s Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Batesburg-Leesville, SC
Age: 52
Posts: 1,635
Wiki Edits: 14

Thanks: 0
Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts
On the six cylinder car the diff hangs from the engine block. On four cylinders it's attached to the body. There are extra bosses on the sides of the 1980+ AMC six for the diff brackets to bolt to. You'd have to make brackets to hang off the frame, but that would be easy enough. There are bosses on the diff that the stamped steel hangers attach to.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #113 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2012, 08:51 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: BEVERLY,MA
Posts: 41
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 25
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
plans for toro/cord conversion

Quote:
Originally Posted by farna View Post
I didn't go through the entire thread, but since someone mentioned a Chevy Colorado I suppose you're thinking about using a 4x4 truck front axle and a transfer case locked into 4WD? There were (may still be!) some car transporters made that way maybe 10 years ago. 4x4 truck with a car trailer grafted on back. That made a very low deck front wheel drive transporter. I suppose you're thinking along the same lines....
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneMoreTime View Post
Well i was thinking the front axle and such from a 4wd would be the most practical...

Sam
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Shadow View Post
Front diff from an IFS four wheel drive is definitely the way to go with the very limited space available up front in the Cord.
The difficult part will be finding one about right width, and with suitably tall gear ratio, that is not too heavy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by farna View Post
Knowing how the Cord is made, I agree. Depending on how the front diff is made it can be shortened, or shorter half shafts used. An AMC Eagle diff might be a good one to consider. That's a small car, narrower than most trucks, but uses a similar FWD axle arrangement. It's a Dana 30 differential, same as the one used in Jeeps, so there is a good gear selection out there. The diff is on the left with an axle tube running under the engine to the right. Flat flanges on each end for a GM type half-shaft.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Shadow View Post
Farna,
That looks mighty interesting, here is a picture of an Eagle front diff.
As you say, Dana 30 front diff ratios (in reverse rotation) down to 2.75 are available.
Original front track of Eagle is 59.6" It appears that the diff bolts rigidly onto the engine block.
Quote:
Originally Posted by farna View Post
On the six cylinder car the diff hangs from the engine block. On four cylinders it's attached to the body. There are extra bosses on the sides of the 1980+ AMC six for the diff brackets to bolt to. You'd have to make brackets to hang off the frame, but that would be easy enough. There are bosses on the diff that the stamped steel hangers attach to.
hi,
my heartfelt thanks for the great advice and concern, it's truly appreciated. i've finally contacted the guy who actually has plans for toro conversion, he hopes to send them to me shortly. i plan on sharing these with everyone for your review and comments,i'm almost sure it require fabricating a new sub-frame and shaft. best regards,Jerry
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #114 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2012, 09:27 AM
farna's Avatar
Member
 
Last wiki edit: AMC V-8s Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Batesburg-Leesville, SC
Age: 52
Posts: 1,635
Wiki Edits: 14

Thanks: 0
Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts
Do let us know how things turn out! I'm sure the Toro will work, but it will definitely require a new front frame to be fabricated. The only real problem I see is the balance of the car will change dramatically. The Toro differential is right beside the engine to the left. The right axle shaft runs under the oil pan right in front of the bell housing. The axle is similar to the AMC Eagle front axle. You can change the half shaft lengths easy enough.

The Toro setup has the torque converter in the normal position with a chain drive on the back of the bell where the transmission would normally be. The TH-400 body is on the left side of the bell housing with the differential bolted directly to it in place of the output shaft housing. This is going to place about 2/3 of the engine forward of the axle, whereas with the original Cord drivetrain everything is well in front of the axle.

Now, I wonder how close that Toro TH-400 is to a standard rear drive TH-400? If it's essentially the same you could tear the trans apart and change the output shaft to a short output TH-400 shaft and housing, then move the differential (or use an Eagle or IFS truck axle) to the front mounted on the frame with a shaft between the TH-400 and front axle. That will be more work than using a 4x4 trans and x-fer case, but you won't have to make a trans tunnel. The engine can be pushed forward a bit and it will actually help -- Cords had traction problems under heavy acceleration and some slippery conditions (I remember reading that as one of the drawbacks). Considering that the Cord transmission is between the engine and differential you could move the engine up to just behind the differential (about a foot forward) and still have room for the bell housing under the hood. The floor may sit high enough that no hump will be needed for just the trans, and if it is it will be a low hump.

There was a 3/4 scale (or 5/8... some even say 8/10) Cord replica made in the 60s. It used a Corvair engine and transaxle with the transaxle turned to the front, very similar to the original Cord layout, except the trans was in front of the diff, not between the diff and engine (diff is between engine and trans in the Corvair layout). To swap directions in a Corvair or VW transaxle the carrier is merely flipped so that the ring gear is on the opposite side. Easy to do in those, though I would think the gear lash has to be reset. With an auto trans this is a piece of cake. Don't know about Corvair manual trans shifting, but there are many sand rail racers who flip the VW transaxle for a mid engine arrangement, so a shifting mechanism is available.

What I read about the Corvair powered Cord replicas states that the Corvair installation was under powered and unreliable. Underpowered would depend on weight of the replica and what kind of performance was expected. Unreliable would have to be due to the installation. Corvairs were as reliable as most other cars of the early 60s.

68-74 SAMCO and later replicas (they used the same body as the 60's scaled down version) were all rear drive layout.

See http://www.stutzbearcat.com/cordhistory.htm

Last edited by farna; 09-11-2012 at 09:47 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #115 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2012, 03:45 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: BEVERLY,MA
Posts: 41
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 25
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
terry harrington cord conversion

Quote:
Originally Posted by farna View Post
Do let us know how things turn out! I'm sure the Toro will work, but it will definitely require a new front frame to be fabricated. The only real problem I see is the balance of the car will change dramatically. The Toro differential is right beside the engine to the left. The right axle shaft runs under the oil pan right in front of the bell housing. The axle is similar to the AMC Eagle front axle. You can change the half shaft lengths easy enough.

The Toro setup has the torque converter in the normal position with a chain drive on the back of the bell where the transmission would normally be. The TH-400 body is on the left side of the bell housing with the differential bolted directly to it in place of the output shaft housing. This is going to place about 2/3 of the engine forward of the axle, whereas with the original Cord drivetrain everything is well in front of the axle.

Now, I wonder how close that Toro TH-400 is to a standard rear drive TH-400? If it's essentially the same you could tear the trans apart and change the output shaft to a short output TH-400 shaft and housing, then move the differential (or use an Eagle or IFS truck axle) to the front mounted on the frame with a shaft between the TH-400 and front axle. That will be more work than using a 4x4 trans and x-fer case, but you won't have to make a trans tunnel. The engine can be pushed forward a bit and it will actually help -- Cords had traction problems under heavy acceleration and some slippery conditions (I remember reading that as one of the drawbacks). Considering that the Cord transmission is between the engine and differential you could move the engine up to just behind the differential (about a foot forward) and still have room for the bell housing under the hood. The floor may sit high enough that no hump will be needed for just the trans, and if it is it will be a low hump.

There was a 3/4 scale (or 5/8... some even say 8/10) Cord replica made in the 60s. It used a Corvair engine and transaxle with the transaxle turned to the front, very similar to the original Cord layout, except the trans was in front of the diff, not between the diff and engine (diff is between engine and trans in the Corvair layout). To swap directions in a Corvair or VW transaxle the carrier is merely flipped so that the ring gear is on the opposite side. Easy to do in those, though I would think the gear lash has to be reset. With an auto trans this is a piece of cake. Don't know about Corvair manual trans shifting, but there are many sand rail racers who flip the VW transaxle for a mid engine arrangement, so a shifting mechanism is available.

What I read about the Corvair powered Cord replicas states that the Corvair installation was under powered and unreliable. Underpowered would depend on weight of the replica and what kind of performance was expected. Unreliable would have to be due to the installation. Corvairs were as reliable as most other cars of the early 60s.

68-74 SAMCO and later replicas (they used the same body as the 60's scaled down version) were all rear drive layout.

See Cord Automobile History
hi again Farna, great post,if you have time check out this site,google cords,hollywood grahams,hupmobile skylarks than scroll down, find and click on cords, hollywood grahams,hupmobile skylarks-hot rod,find page 2 items 29&30 take a look at the pics. check out engine location and let know what you think about it. thanks again, regards ,Jerry
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #116 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2012, 08:33 AM
farna's Avatar
Member
 
Last wiki edit: AMC V-8s Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Batesburg-Leesville, SC
Age: 52
Posts: 1,635
Wiki Edits: 14

Thanks: 0
Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts
Do you mean the Harrington Cord, post 29 and 30 in this link?:
Cords, Hollywood Grahams, Hupmobile Skylarks

Well darn, that's about right, isn't it? Okay, that's what I get for posting from memory. I just pulled my 70 Motor's manual out and looked up the Toro drivetrain. The axle center is about under the timing cover, NOT between the bell and oil pan sump. So it's close to the right spot. It works in the Cord because the Cord was made for a much longer drivetrain (288.6 I-8, 3.5" bore, so it was roughly 36" long). The engine is pushed forward a bit (compared to the stock Cord drivetrain), so you may have to use "hot rod" accessory brackets to pull the accessories in and up, but it should fit just fine.

Pulled my 35-42 Motor's and looked at the Cord drivetrain again. It's made similar to the Corvair and VW transaxles -- the differential is between the engine and transmission. Should have looked those two up and made sure I was correct before posting!!

I'll slink back to the back of the classroom and listen now instead of trying to jump in the middle of everything before I have all the CORRECT info!!

Here's a post that you might find interesting though:
Post Cord Street Rod Pictures Here - Page 2 - THE H.A.M.B.

This is a Cord and Graham side by side. Not that the front axle centerline has been moved back a bit on the rear drive Graham vs. the front drive Cord. Graham bought the Cord body dies when Cord went belly up, but they made some changes so there were actually fewer stampings.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #117 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2012, 12:35 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: BEVERLY,MA
Posts: 41
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 25
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by farna View Post
Do you mean the Harrington Cord, post 29 and 30 in this link?:
Cords, Hollywood Grahams, Hupmobile Skylarks

Well darn, that's about right, isn't it? Okay, that's what I get for posting from memory. I just pulled my 70 Motor's manual out and looked up the Toro drivetrain. The axle center is about under the timing cover, NOT between the bell and oil pan sump. So it's close to the right spot. It works in the Cord because the Cord was made for a much longer drivetrain (288.6 I-8, 3.5" bore, so it was roughly 36" long). The engine is pushed forward a bit (compared to the stock Cord drivetrain), so you may have to use "hot rod" accessory brackets to pull the accessories in and up, but it should fit just fine.

Pulled my 35-42 Motor's and looked at the Cord drivetrain again. It's made similar to the Corvair and VW transaxles -- the differential is between the engine and transmission. Should have looked those two up and made sure I was correct before posting!!

I'll slink back to the back of the classroom and listen now instead of trying to jump in the middle of everything before I have all the CORRECT info!!

Here's a post that you might find interesting though:
Post Cord Street Rod Pictures Here - Page 2 - THE H.A.M.B.

This is a Cord and Graham side by side. Not that the front axle centerline has been moved back a bit on the rear drive Graham vs. the front drive Cord. Graham bought the Cord body dies when Cord went belly up, but they made some changes so there were actually fewer stampings.
Hi Farna, Actually you go to the front of the class,i think your the 1st guy to actually visit this site that i've mentioned in previous posts and take a hard look at those pics. thank you! my computer skills suck or i would have brought them into a post like you just did. I hope everybody takes look at those pics. and has comments,love the feedback. Thanks again for the great post! warmest regards,Jerry
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #118 (permalink)  
Old 09-13-2012, 01:01 AM
nasmovtx's Avatar
Registered User
 

Last journal entry: Firewall
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Seattle Wash
Age: 59
Posts: 9
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
This is a great thread, one I find most interesting. I restored a 37 Beverly in 1975 while working in a Seattle restoration shop. The car was for a NBA player, with a name most folks know quite well. We bought the car off Hemmings sight-unseen, and it was very rough. It took about 6 months to finish, but we were able to find parts and have all the machineing done so everything was rebuilt as new. I do remember the front sub-frame attached with 13 bolts on each side, and the problem with the engines were that they were prone to cracking around the water jackets, anti-freeze or not.
Right now I've been on a casual hunt for a set of fenders for a 37, as my brother has misplaced his. He's owned a Berline (limo) since 1976. Never driven it, but it still looks good sitting in his garage!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #119 (permalink)  
Old 09-14-2012, 08:38 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: BEVERLY,MA
Posts: 41
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 25
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by nasmovtx View Post
This is a great thread, one I find most interesting. I restored a 37 Beverly in 1975 while working in a Seattle restoration shop. The car was for a NBA player, with a name most folks know quite well. We bought the car off Hemmings sight-unseen, and it was very rough. It took about 6 months to finish, but we were able to find parts and have all the machineing done so everything was rebuilt as new. I do remember the front sub-frame attached with 13 bolts on each side, and the problem with the engines were that they were prone to cracking around the water jackets, anti-freeze or not.
Right now I've been on a casual hunt for a set of fenders for a 37, as my brother has misplaced his. He's owned a Berline (limo) since 1976. Never driven it, but it still looks good sitting in his garage!
Hi nasmovtx,thanks for the post.If you're looking for cord fenders try the Auburn, Cord,Dusenberg Club site, click on forums find ACD flea market buy and sell area, find 810/812 parts for sale/wanted. be prepared for " STICKER SHOCK" parts prices are super expensive due to rarity, a good front fender is around $3K and i don't think it had headlight assy.(try finding one of those) somewhere in this site i think somebody was making fiberglass replicas,also check e-bay,i remember seeing a pair of rough fenders for $1,300-. I belive your right about cracked blocks,seen several "reparable" cracked blocks for sale,let me know which fenders you need,if i run across any i'll let you know. Best of luck! Regards,Jerry
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #120 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2012, 08:44 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Syracuse, NY
Posts: 2,133
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 410
Thanked 213 Times in 192 Posts
Jerry,

How are things progressing?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent General Rodding Tech posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Front Wheel Drive 1953 Chevy *First Ever??* Lots of Custom work inside this thread!! caseyscustoms Hotrodders' Lounge 24 03-03-2012 11:27 PM
drive shaft seems to short after engine swap firebird7980 Hotrodding Basics 16 11-16-2011 08:00 PM
Front wheel drive or rear Tbucit Engine 5 10-11-2007 09:30 PM
Where to find front-wheel drive information? Native Gearhead Transmission - Rearend 0 12-07-2003 12:02 PM
454 tbi with front wheel drive box 37 chevy Transmission - Rearend 2 01-26-2003 05:11 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.